The Russians never duplicated Apollo 8

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Phage, with all respect, you are insisting that the Saturn V configuration is the only feasible one that could fulfill the Apollo 8 mission plan.

Where did I say that? Even once, much less insisting upon it? I said it worked...very well.

It would have worked for the Soviets too, if their rocket didn't keep blowing up.

originally posted by: AlphaHawk
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

The Soviets would have not stopped lunar exploration

They didn't stop, they went with unmanned rovers and landers instead.

When was the last Russian mission to the moon?

a reply to: Phage

The point is, that is why the US landed men on the Moon and the USSR didn't.

OK, point taken and I will hang my head.

The USSR did not go to the moon because they could not at that time and once the USA did so there was no need. That race had been won and won well.

The USSR decided to build their Space Station and did so continuing the game of 'Up Yours' that both sides were playing. The USSR never wanted to "do it too". their thinking was Be First or don't go.

P

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Phage, with all respect, you are insisting that the Saturn V configuration is the only feasible one that could fulfill the Apollo 8 mission plan.

Where did I say that? Even once, much less insisting upon it? I said it worked...very well.

It would have worked for the Soviets too, if their rocket didn't keep blowing up.

Soviet Russians can build a great space station for 10 years but they can't duplicate Apollo 8 from 1968? You keep insisting that a lunar mission would depend on a huge rocket system like Saturn V or N1. That is not the case at all.

Once you have low earth orbit rendezvous perfected you can do just about anything. The Soviets had it down pat with Mir. Yet they never attempted to leave LOW EARTH ORBIT in 46 years. Maybe you have been subjected to too much Western propaganda. Can politics trump science? Is that your position? Does it take a man like Richard Nixon to get humans to the moon and back? Please be real. Mankind has been practicing in low earth orbit for 40+ years. It looks like Apollo 8 could be a fake mission.

The Soviet's pondered the possibility of an Apollo 8 style mission using a Soyuz variant called the 7K-L1, or Zond - basically a Soyuz with the orbital module removed and some other weight-saving measures - on top of a Proton rocket variant. Unfortunately, the Proton was relatively new, and had the nasty habit of blowing up.

The Zond capsule made about 14 test flights - it is hard to get a solid number, because the Soviets had the habit of renaming any failed mission with the generic Cosmos designation and claiming it was a scientific flight. Only 5 of these flights successfully returned the capsule to Earth, and of those 5, only 1 re-entered in a manner which would have allowed a crew to survive. The other four re-entered too fast or too steep.

Fun Fact: Zond 5 was the first spacecraft to return living creatures to Earth from the space around the moon.

Source at Astronautix here, although the Wiki page is much more readable.

That is a funny comment about the USA and Russia coping each others tech and just like the classic word game "chinese whispers" *i hope thats not racist now in any way its not meant to be* they copy each other and always miss somthing pretty vital and end up making a bit of a failure version. The Russians were especially bad for this.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Mid seventies.

Why?

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Soviet Russians can build a great space station for 10 years but they can't duplicate Apollo 8 from 1968? You keep insisting that a lunar mission would depend on a huge rocket system like Saturn V or N1. That is not the case at all.

You seem to be of the opinion that because they didn't, then it couldn't be done, that's just silly.

The moon race essentially ended and the next phase was learning about long term survivability in space, may as well do that in LEO, where it's safer.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

You keep insisting that a lunar mission would depend on a huge rocket system like Saturn V or N1.

No I don't. In spite of the fact that you keep insisting I keep insisting that, I have not made that claim a single time.

I said the Saturn V worked very well for the job. I said that the Soviets were developing a similar approach but their vehicle didn't work.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

With all due respect, has an orbit rendezvous configuration ever been tried for beyond-orbit flight, by any country? It's easy to say "they could", but that's like a totally different space program, with different hardware, calculations, technical considerations, etc.

The Soviets tried to duplicate Apollo program, but they didn't have those big awesome Von Braun engines, and had to stick 30 smaller engines on each N-1 rocket instead. It didn't work, as simple as that.

a reply to: pheonix358

The point is that the OP of this thread is a proponent of the moon hoax theory. Therefore to him it is a "red flag" that the Soviets didn't bother to repeat Apollo 8 even after the Americans had gone one better and landed men on the moon, never mind orbiting it.

Anyone else might think that it was a rather sensible move to give up and move on to a different goal rather than carrying on with exploding rockets and giving everyone some more multi-billion-ruble firework displays

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

I'm looking for some well reasoned, non technical responses that could convince me why such a simple mission objective could not be duplicated by any other advanced country for the last 46 years. Is it impossible? Or is it possible but nobody has the balls to do it?

I don't know if its true or false, but I've never seen anyone who can even answer Jerrah White. Here is his episode on Apollo 8, skip to 4:10 to start.

a reply to: wildespace

The Soviets tried to duplicate Apollo program, but they didn't have those big awesome Von Braun engines,

Thanks for confirming the Nazi/Apollo hypothesis.

originally posted by: Phage
I said the Saturn V worked very well for the job. I said that the Soviets were developing a similar approach but their vehicle didn't work.

What other scientific areas are the Russians deficient? Are they deficient in cancer research? Are they deficient in telecom? Are they deficient in medicine or space medicine? I don't think that they are.

But they are deficient in one area -> human travel beyond low earth orbit.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
a reply to: wildespace

The Soviets tried to duplicate Apollo program, but they didn't have those big awesome Von Braun engines,

Thanks for confirming the Nazi/Apollo hypothesis.

What Nazi/Apollo hypothesis? It is common knowledge that von Braun lead the development of the Saturn V booster rockets.

originally posted by: pianopraze

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

I'm looking for some well reasoned, non technical responses that could convince me why such a simple mission objective could not be duplicated by any other advanced country for the last 46 years. Is it impossible? Or is it possible but nobody has the balls to do it?

I don't know if its true or false, but I've never seen anyone who can even answer Jerrah White. Here is his episode on Apollo 8, skip to 4:10 to start.

Could you list some of his question or points here? I don't want to watch a 40+ minute video only to realise I wasted my time.

a reply to: wildespace

What Nazi/Apollo hypothesis?

His hypothesis is:

NAZI = HOAX!

Similar to his, RICHARD NIXON = HOAX!

And I'm not kidding, that is the extent of his hypotheses.
He never really says why he thinks these things, just keeps on insisting they are true.

originally posted by: pianopraze

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

I'm looking for some well reasoned, non technical responses that could convince me why such a simple mission objective could not be duplicated by any other advanced country for the last 46 years. Is it impossible? Or is it possible but nobody has the balls to do it?

I don't know if its true or false, but I've never seen anyone who can even answer Jerrah White. Here is his episode on Apollo 8, skip to 4:10 to start.

I haven't looked at that part in detail, but if his research is as shoddy as it is in the rest of that video then I wouldn't hold your hopes up.

I dealt with some of his specific claims and calculations later on in that video, and pointed out some of the basic mathematical blunders that led to him filling a shopping trolley with 48 litres of milk. (Starts about 35mins in.) His response was to call me a troll and block me from his YouTube channel, which is pretty standard for Jarrah from what I hear. Nobody must disagree with the gospel according to JW. He won't enter into any debate on forums that he doesn't control, where he can't delete any dissenting voices.

See this thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm at work now so can't study the video again but let me guess, it's the "fake earth footage was really filmed in low earth orbit" nonsense that has been debunked to death?

a reply to: Rob48

Your forum signature is brilliant, by the way. See this thread by Jarrah White: forums.thetechnodrome.com...

the moon sucks up the Gamma-rays like spung, turning itself into a barron radioactive wasteland.

Without propper sheilding any human exposed to the Gamma-radiation would have suffered lethal doses of canser.

I studdy the dangers of radiation. With my knowlegde of the existance of Gamma-rays in deep space it's gonna be kinda hard to convince me that this tiny capsule wrapped in aluminium took the astronauts to the moon.

This guy is a clown.

a reply to: wildespace

I've skimmed through some of the vid and on every point he makes he is horribly wrong. Feel sorry for the guy really. I don't know if the accent hides it from you folks overseas but judging from the way he speaks he seems to have some sort of psychological/physiological disorder.