Oklahoma Botched Execution - Clayton Lockett took 45 Minutes to Die

originally posted by: kimar
a reply to: NavyDoc

You're now talking off the rails. It is clear that you're not in the right frame of mind to have a mature debate.

Nonsense. I am dealing in the facts. You are dealing with emotions.

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: NavyDoc

The crime rate isn't as high as it once was. To say it is, is fear mongering.

Would it be wise to look worldwide for a solution for a effective prison system or not? What system works what doesn't?

Compared to what? The crime rate in the US is many, many times higher than it was in 1950.

Well it really makes you wonder doesn't it. Why not just knock him out with chloroform and inject his veins with Liquid Draino after he passes out? Or fill a room with Carbon Monoxide the "silent killer"....Humane, HA! Veins exploding in one case and as reported in Ohio, "gurgled" and suffocated for 19min in another.

Makes me think its a bit intentional...

originally posted by: Rosinitiate
Well it really makes you wonder doesn't it. Why not just knock him out with chloroform and inject his veins with Liquid Draino after he passes out? Or fill a room with Carbon Monoxide the "silent killer"....Humane, HA! Veins exploding in one case and as reported in Ohio, "gurgled" and suffocated for 19min in another.

Makes me think its a bit intentional...

I'm afraid that no method of execution will be considered humane by those against it. Perfection is unattainable.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: NavyDoc

The crime rate isn't as high as it once was. To say it is, is fear mongering.

Would it be wise to look worldwide for a solution for a effective prison system or not? What system works what doesn't?

Compared to what? The crime rate in the US is many, many times higher than it was in 1950.

Incorrect some say the lead in gasoline caused much of the crimes years ago but here is a link that shows crime from the 1960's till 2009 you are wrong.
50 year Trends in Violent Crime in the .....

originally posted by: LDragonFire

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: NavyDoc

The crime rate isn't as high as it once was. To say it is, is fear mongering.

Would it be wise to look worldwide for a solution for a effective prison system or not? What system works what doesn't?

Compared to what? The crime rate in the US is many, many times higher than it was in 1950.

Incorrect some say the lead in gasoline caused much of the crimes years ago but here is a link that shows crime from the 1960's till 2009 you are wrong.
50 year Trends in Violent Crime in the .....

What are you talking about? The highest peaks in the links you provided are all in the 1990s. My comment is accurate even based on the link you provided.

In EVERY single chart, the links you provided demonstrates that crime was lower in the 1950's than today.

Lets look at just one of the charts in the link you provided.


Compare forcible rape of today (or closest) to the end of he 1950's decade. (1960 was the earliest date in the chart.) How can anyone say, with a modicum of intelligence, that my statement was wrong?

originally posted by: whitewave
There was a second execution slated for the same day...a man who sat for 17 years on death row after admitting that he raped and killed an 11 month old baby. Due to the circumstances of Lockett's execution, Warner (the baby rapist) has now received a stay of execution.
There are several tragedies in this case (Lockett's suffering not even making the top 5).
1) Warner still lives
2) As tax payers, the families of Lockett and Warner's victims have endured the added pain and insult of having to house and feed the killers of their loved ones.
3) IT took 17 YEARS to bring Warner to his just desserts only to have it postponed because Lockett didn't get a comfortable death.
4) The condemned don't NEED to know what drugs are used to kill them any more than they'd need to know whether a hanging rope was made of cotton or nylon. That's a non issue.
5 Blown veins happen. As a nurse, I'd just start another IV and try, try again. Lockett's veins did not "explode" inside him. That is the rankest form of sensationalism and an outright lie.

As civilized people, society tries to make punishment as humane as possible but that doesn't mean we have to pamper or molly coddle these threats to our safety. It's cruel and unusual for the victim's families to prolong their suffering. There are any number of drugs that will kill in high enough doses with minimal amount of victim suffering. Insulin comes to mind. The DOC just needs to get on with it.

or a hot shot of some crappy street heroin.

what happened to "the chair"?

this guy should have been thrown to the lions.

really, get his heart pumping and a little terror going like his victim suffered.
he shot her in the head with a shotgun but didn't kill her outright. after beating and raping her.
he had them bury her anyway. not that it matters but she was an only child.
i hope none of her family is reading some of these posts in this thread.

i said on another forum that i hoped it would be painful and people jumped on me for it, lol.

I find no joy in shooting a rabid dog but if a wild animal proves itself a threat, it needs to be put down. I've had to put down a wild dog that killed all my livestock just for fun. My first 3 bullets at close range didn't put it down and I was sobbing like a child but I kept firing until the danger of the wild animal was over. I disagree that we need to find new and more sadistic ways to deal with society's predators but we do need to rid ourselves of the threat quickly. Both of the convicts are dangerous predators who should have been put down years ago.
There are a lot of unpleasant jobs in the world and I imagine that being an executioner is right up there. Sometimes your work day doesn't go according to Hoyle but you do the best you can, learn from your mistakes and carry on. Lockett's death was not ideally carried out but the job got done.

I didn't at first understand why the EU outlawed the sale of drugs to be used in executions, to the US.

After reading the sheer venom of the posts in this thread, now I do.

You're not about the performance of justice. Justice ordered by the courts after a fair and just trial, you're all about revenge which has no place in a modern world. Yes the man committed a heinous crime. Did he deserve to die? I don't know, and to be honest, I am anti-death penalty. He was sentenced to die by a, and this is important, duly recognised court of law. Therefore his death was correctly mandated, I have zero problem with this, its your justice system and I will respect your rights as a sovereign nation to decide the penalties for crimes committed in your country.

I don't even agree with some of the posters here saying the constitution was breached. It wasn't. The constitution protects people from a cruel and unusual punishment. The sentence was to death by lethal injection. The sentence was to death by lethal injection. Thats not cruel or unusual if performed correctly and competently. What happened was an unforeseen incident regarding blown veins. This could not have been predicted by anyone. Nobody is at fault, and it did not breach the constitution. It was an accident, plain and simple.

What I don't agree with are the attitudes of some posters here saying how he deserved to die in agony and in pain. Those are the very attitudes for which the constitution exists to prevent entering the justice system. Those are attitudes of revenge, not justice. Revenge and personal feeling has no place in a modern justice system.

a reply to: NavyDoc
Is that per capita or overall.

Sorry the wording on my tablet on the graphs fuzzy.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: NavyDoc
Is that per capita or overall.

Sorry the wording on my tablet on the graphs fuzzy.

It looks like total numbers overall and thus, you would be correct to state that an increasing population would account for some of the increasing overall numbers, but our population did not have a 4 fourfold increase in that time. According to census information, the population in 1960 was 179,323,175 and in 2012 was 313.9 million. That is about a doubling, but increased population cannot account for the 4-5 fold increase the graphs show.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Crimes like forcible rape and aggravated assault were not reported in the past like they are today but here are some of the other graphs you didn't post.

The number of violent crimes in the United States dropped significantly last year, to what appeared to be the lowest rate in nearly 40 years, a development that was considered puzzling partly because it ran counter to the prevailing expectation that crime would increase during a recession.

In all regions, the country appears to be safer. The odds of being murdered or robbed are now less than half of what they were in the early 1990s, when violent crime peaked in the United States. Small towns, especially, are seeing far fewer murders: In cities with populations under 10,000, the number plunged by more than 25 percent last year.

Steady decline in major crime....



Here is a pdf on declining violent crime across the board concerning youth crime stats:
databit2013..

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: NavyDoc

Crimes like forcible rape and aggravated assault were not reported in the past like they are today but here are some of the other graphs you didn't post.

The number of violent crimes in the United States dropped significantly last year, to what appeared to be the lowest rate in nearly 40 years, a development that was considered puzzling partly because it ran counter to the prevailing expectation that crime would increase during a recession.

In all regions, the country appears to be safer. The odds of being murdered or robbed are now less than half of what they were in the early 1990s, when violent crime peaked in the United States. Small towns, especially, are seeing far fewer murders: In cities with populations under 10,000, the number plunged by more than 25 percent last year.

Steady decline in major crime....


Here is a pdf on declining violent crime across the board concerning youth crime stats:
databit2013..

And all of those graphs show that crime was much lower in 1950's than today, so I still don't get what you are driving at. That is the pattern on ALL the graphs in the site you linked us to. Certainly crime has slipped from it's 1990's peak, but it is still several times as it was at the end of the 1950's all across the board. All you have done is reinforce my point that crime was much less in the 1950's as it is now.

originally posted by: NavyDoc


It looks like total numbers overall and thus, you would be correct to state that an increasing population would account for some of the increasing overall numbers, but our population did not have a 4 fourfold increase in that time. According to census information, the population in 1960 was 179,323,175 and in 2012 was 313.9 million. That is about a doubling, but increased population cannot account for the 4-5 fold increase the graphs show.

Thanks for clearing that up. The tablet screen just want showing the text.

Your point still stands and I cant argue with it.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: NavyDoc


It looks like total numbers overall and thus, you would be correct to state that an increasing population would account for some of the increasing overall numbers, but our population did not have a 4 fourfold increase in that time. According to census information, the population in 1960 was 179,323,175 and in 2012 was 313.9 million. That is about a doubling, but increased population cannot account for the 4-5 fold increase the graphs show.

Thanks for clearing that up. The tablet screen just want showing the text.

Your point still stands and I cant argue with it.

I'm sorry for what I thought was a simple and self-explanatory comment turned into a derailment of the thread.

I believe the lethal cocktail would have been worked fine if not for the vein failure, but I would suggest the authorities look to the vein rupture as the primary cause. Let's hope they find a new way of administering the injection or perhaps two injections simultaneously to never have this happen again.

The veins in your hand are more fragile and smaller then the other veins in your arm. Try to use smaller gauge needle and inject much more slowly than you would in a a big honkin' arm vein. The reason for that is that you inject too fast, you put too much pressure on your delicate vein which can burst.

www.friendtofriend.org...

Two injections were simultaneously made, on the right and left side. The individual did not have vein failure. The problem was with the cocktail.

originally posted by: kimar
Two injections were simultaneously made, on the right and left side. The individual did not have vein failure. The problem was with the cocktail.

If one vein infiltrates, then that portion of the cocktail does not get into circulation and so you don't get the desired results. They should keep it simple and combine them. In Iraq, we would combine the induction agent and the paralytic in a single syringe for ease of administration. Some combinations cause one or more to particulate out, but a vec/barbiturate combination in the same syringe should work fine.

Each part of the cocktail has a different role to play because there is not a single medication that does everything. The same cocktail is used for anesthesia throughout the world, so it really isn't the issue some think it is.

originally posted by: kimar
Two injections were simultaneously made, on the right and left side. The individual did not have vein failure. The problem was with the cocktail.

From the linked news article below, it mentions nothing of two injections, just one on the right arm where the vein ruptured, thereby not allowing most of drug to enter his bloodstream, rather it entered his tissues, which would still be absorbed but at a much slower rate. Please post the information where you read that there were two injections.

newsok.com...

a reply to: InTheLight

I saw a news report where it was stated that he was injected in both sides, if this is wrong I apologize for my incorrect statement.

The point remains that the problem was with the cocktail. The first chemical was supposed to render the individual unconscious. The individual was said to be unconscious, but three minutes after this was declared he displayed signs that this was not the case. The fact that a (non-indepedent) investigation will take place and the other execution was stayed shows that there is doubt on the part of the officials that the problem was vein failure.

Edited to add: I have confirmed, after watching an interview with the lawyer of the other man who was supposed to be executed that indeed the injection goes into both arms.