Wondering about plants

The "purpose" of any living thing (whether it be plants, bacteria, mosquitoes, dogs, or humans) is to reproduce in order to allow the species to live on to the next generation.

Most of the things a living organism does is for the purpose of living long enough to be able to pass its genetic material to create the next generation of that organism, which will live in order to do them same -- and so on, and so on.

ImaFungi

I didnt say planner or planning. But there must be some 'urging'. Think about this statement; The thing that means the most, always, ever, is 'consciousness'.

Why?

A simple way to prove that statement is by imagining a reality in which there is a ton of stuff, all the stuff one can think of, and then some, but guaranteed in eternal time never to be a single spec or moment of consciousness, what then of it? Meaningless right.

Who says existence has meaning? The only point it has is what we choose to give it. If we weren't here, it would still be itself. It doesn't need us to experience it.

In essence, there is no point in a grand sort of way.

Higher orders of complex life, 'needed' 'what plants are and do' to exist. Is that not true?

When you look around and see what looks like 'need', what you're seeing is life that evolved to use the conditions that you had. Of course it looks like it's all interdependent, and it is, because it developed under those conditions. If I was EeEP!shaz the obligate anaerobe sea monkey, I'd look around and say to myself that it was OoRoRP, the great sea god, that obviously planned out existence by creating hydrogen sulfide vents to nourish the only form of life there could be.

reply to post by dusty1


The evolution of life is random, but that randomness has had billions of years to to its thing. Every so often, that randomness of evolution happens to stumble upon (completely by chance) something that gives a specific organism an advantage over the other organisms (a random advantage that makes the organism work better with nature itself). That advantage is enough to allow it to live for a longer enough time to pass more of the genetic code of that advantage to the next generation -- a generation who has now inherited that advantage.

Over billions of years and through these sorts of advantageous random acts of chance, life eventually finds ways of working more in harmony with nature, because that harmony is more advantageous to the organism. Random evolutionary changes that were not advantageous/harmonious with nature died out with the organism that had that non-advantageous evolutionary change.

The result of it all is a natural world that seemingly works in harmony with itself, as if it was designed that way. It sort of was, but that designer is nature itself, and the two main tools nature used to create the design is random chance and time.

Soylent Green Is People
reply to post by dusty1

 

The evolution of life is random, but that randomness has had billions of years to to its thing. Every so often, that randomness of evolution happens to stumble upon (completely by chance) something that gives a specific organism an advantage over the other organisms (a random advantage that makes the organism work better with nature itself). That advantage is enough to allow it to live for a longer enough time to pass more of the genetic code of that advantage to the next generation -- a generation who has now inherited that advantage.

Over billions of years and through these sorts of advantageous random acts of chance, life eventually finds ways of working more in harmony with nature, because that harmony is more advantageous to the organism. Random evolutionary changes that were not advantageous/harmonious with nature died out with the organism that had that non-advantageous evolutionary change.

The result of it all is a natural world that seemingly works in harmony with itself, as if it was designed that way. It sort of was, but that designer is nature itself, and the two main tools nature used to create the design is random chance and time.

Although I can't disagree with you, I think that, to be fair, you have to factor in the role that natural selection plays, and as importantly the role that environment serves. The first life on this planet had to contend with some incredibly hostile conditions and that has shaped evolution, or how evolution works here on this planet. The vast majority of life to emerge has failed to thrive and died out before passing on their genetic material which has led to a very robust set of organisms populating the biosphere. Chance is part of it, but it is not all random. Many environmental factors work according to predictable patterns, and many life forms have learnt to adapt or modify their behaviours in order survive those. Such as plants, some seeds can remain dormant in the ground for decades awaiting optimum conditions for germination, and that information is programmed into that seed. Same goes for flowering and the setting of it's seed. That is more than just random, it is responsive to the environment in which it has evolved.

The way in which life forms have evolved, have in turn shaped the environment. From the currents in the sea, to the air that we are able to breathe. Sure, randomness, is a part of that, but it is a predictable randomness. And of course, long, long periods of time. Earthquakes, volcanoes, Tsunamis...even devastating nuclear winters caused by massive comet strikes, can be overcome and have been adapted to by some life on this planet.

So, to reiterate, I don't disagree with you, I just found how you worded it, well...a little mundane, when in fact it is totally magical

Also, as an add-on, in terms of surviving anything...clade size is imperative. That, and the fundamental drive to disperse and cluster...disperse and cluster...disperse and cluster....think Abraham

Soylent Green Is People

The "purpose" of any living thing (whether it be plants, bacteria, mosquitoes, dogs, or humans) is to reproduce in order to allow the species to live on to the next generation.

Most of the things a living organism does is for the purpose of living long enough to be able to pass its genetic material to create the next generation of that organism, which will live in order to do them same -- and so on, and so on.

edit on 4/7/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

There must then be an inherent value in existing, over non existing, if the purpose is to exist, so that you can let the tradition of your existence be experienced by a future deviation of yourself. Reproduction is only necessary because of the difficulty of immortality.

Bedlam

Who says existence has meaning? The only point it has is what we choose to give it. If we weren't here, it would still be itself. It doesn't need us to experience it.

In essence, there is no point in a grand sort of way.

Im not talking about gods you ill minded buffoon. Existence is the point. You are ignoring the totality of experience humans participate in to say that it equals nothing, this is not a mistake so much as an act of potentially uncontrollable ignorance, or the desire lacking to critically think. You have such a stable and easy means of existence you completely have forgotten the war that it is to survive and live, and that life is fought for by all conscious creatures since the beginning of life, this is because there is value in existence, in being alive, it is special, this is why people want to live long, and become successful, and take pride in their families, and education, and work. There is inherent meaning and point, but it is very general and simple, it is to simply and generally exist, then there are tacked on points of, whatever point and meaning we choose to give it.

Im not simply saying if we werent here, as in humans, im saying, no conciousness of any kind, on any planet, in this manifestation of universe or any. ETERNITY, INFINITY, STUFF, with no consciousness ever. Might as well be nothing right? Cant be any point or meaning in that right? STUFF, LOTS OF IT, ETERNITY, some of the stuff forms consciousness on planets right? Compared to a eternal reality in which consciousness never existed, the fact that it can exist, and does in large numbers, and large potentials of achieving high amounts of complexity and perceived value, is meaningful right? Consciousness is the value, it is the meaning, it is the point.

Soylent Green Is People
reply to post by dusty1

 

The evolution of life is random, but that randomness has had billions of years to to its thing. Every so often, that randomness of evolution happens to stumble upon (completely by chance) something that gives a specific organism an advantage over the other organisms (a random advantage that makes the organism work better with nature itself). That advantage is enough to allow it to live for a longer enough time to pass more of the genetic code of that advantage to the next generation -- a generation who has now inherited that advantage.

Over billions of years and through these sorts of advantageous random acts of chance, life eventually finds ways of working more in harmony with nature, because that harmony is more advantageous to the organism. Random evolutionary changes that were not advantageous/harmonious with nature died out with the organism that had that non-advantageous evolutionary change.

The result of it all is a natural world that seemingly works in harmony with itself, as if it was designed that way. It sort of was, but that designer is nature itself, and the two main tools nature used to create the design is random chance and time.

edit on 4/7/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Argue this with me then. My position is that there is no such thing as consciousness and no such thing as free will, all that exists is random, there is no such thing as control, only the laws of physics, and they do everything, matter forced to react according to the laws of physics, do you agree?

Soylent Green Is People

The "purpose" of any living thing (whether it be plants, bacteria, mosquitoes, dogs, or humans) is to reproduce in order to allow the species to live on to the next generation.

Most of the things a living organism does is for the purpose of living long enough to be able to pass its genetic material to create the next generation of that organism, which will live in order to do them same -- and so on, and so on.

edit on 4/7/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Why are there any, let alone so much complex long living life forms that exist? Why is there not just a pure soup or solid jumble of genetic material just configuring and reconfiguring, if the main purpose is for genetic information to exist?

ImaFungi

Soylent Green Is People

The "purpose" of any living thing (whether it be plants, bacteria, mosquitoes, dogs, or humans) is to reproduce in order to allow the species to live on to the next generation.

Most of the things a living organism does is for the purpose of living long enough to be able to pass its genetic material to create the next generation of that organism, which will live in order to do them same -- and so on, and so on.

edit on 4/7/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Why are there any, let alone so much complex long living life forms that exist? Why is there not just a pure soup or solid jumble of genetic material just configuring and reconfiguring, if the main purpose is for genetic information to exist?

The first question is: "Why did a lump of molecules self-replicate (using the available materials around it to replicate itself) to begin with?"

Again, it could simply be by chance and time. Although if we are to believe that Earth life spontaneously started on Earth by chance, that amount of time was only a relatively short time of a few 100 million years. However, once those molecules started to self replicate, the chain reaction of life simply took off.

At that point, the life that happened across random evolutionary advantages lived on more than the ones who did not, and it is possible that complex life offers some sort of advantage over simple life. Two cells working together found that relationship to be advantageous, which then may have led to several cells working together, and so on.

reply to post by ImaFungi

ImaFungi

Soylent Green Is People

The "purpose" of any living thing (whether it be plants, bacteria, mosquitoes, dogs, or humans) is to reproduce in order to allow the species to live on to the next generation.

Most of the things a living organism does is for the purpose of living long enough to be able to pass its genetic material to create the next generation of that organism, which will live in order to do them same -- and so on, and so on.

edit on 4/7/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Why are there any, let alone so much complex long living life forms that exist? Why is there not just a pure soup or solid jumble of genetic material just configuring and reconfiguring, if the main purpose is for genetic information to exist?

Because it's not just about reproduction for the purpose of passing along genetic material. It's also very much about metabolism and energy dissipation.

Living beings are only a cog in the machine built by nature to destroy all exergy and achieve equilibrium. Life is only a way to break down concentrations of energy and turn it into diffuse waste heat. And it seems we are all just an accidental by-product of such a universal process.

For example, plants were created because they are the most efficient at erasing the exergy of sunlight. Animals in turn were created to degrade the exergy of plants when they eat them and so on. Furthermore, animals do this in a way that is more efficient than other physical processes; for instance, burning the plant would actually radiate energy, while a cow eating grass radiates very little energy.

Ecosystems have evolved from systems that emitted a lot of exergy, to systems that emit little exergy. Metabolism is simply a way to degrade energy, and today's animals (such as mammals and birds) are a lot more efficient at it than the first forms of life.

So basically, evolution has been progressing towards more and more efficient (and complex) systems to destroy exergy. It is the energy flow that drives the complexity of these systems. Genetic information is simply information about how to destroy exergy. Perhaps then it's really the 2nd law that drives evolution and not natural selection.

In the end we are all just slaves to entropy. We are here to do the work of entropy and once we've fulfilled that duty we will die out like we are ultimately supposed to do.

reply to post by PhotonEffect


I tend to look upon life as a process by which the rearrangement of matter is facilitated, but by factoring in the exergy, that is utimately the impetus on which that rearrangement process works. The rearrangement remains the fundamental, underlying principle of course, but it is by means of proximity to a source of energy, here on Earth, that that process has achieved such a diverse array of complexity. Interesting.

reply to post by PhotonEffect


That doesnt seem to make sense. The miniscule amount of sun light the earth 'holds onto' is hardly a good system for eradicating/destroying the suns output of energy, especially seeing that energy cannot be destroyed. Biological systems dont appear to be a system and method of destroying energy so much as they appear like a network of systems used to absorb and utilize energy for novel and purposeful inventions.

ImaFungi

Im not talking about gods you ill minded buffoon.

Yet, in a real sense, you are, you just don't have the courage of your convictions. You see some universal meaning, or goal. But there isn't one. You're trying to project your opinion (or possibly fear of lack of purpose) onto things.

Existence is the point.

Why? What makes you think this? Why should there be a "point"? To whom or what is this universal point meaningful?

You are ignoring the totality of experience humans participate in to say that it equals nothing, this is not a mistake so much as an act of potentially uncontrollable ignorance, or the desire lacking to critically think.

No, not at all. You seem to be struggling with the concept that there might be no "point" at all to things. Except those that you create for yourself. The universe as a whole doesn't care. Zoom back a bit...now see the whole Milky Way galaxy about the size of a baseball. What can you do, there off in that spiral arm to the left, to make any difference at all at this level? Nada. Zip. Zero dot diddly. And that's a tiny fraction of the universe. Nothing you do is noticeable or meaningful to the universe as a whole. It might be to you. It might be to some people near you. But to the universe, you're not even noticeable, and never will be.

Im not simply saying if we werent here, as in humans, im saying, no conciousness of any kind, on any planet, in this manifestation of universe or any. ETERNITY, INFINITY, STUFF, with no consciousness ever. Might as well be nothing right? Cant be any point or meaning in that right? STUFF, LOTS OF IT, ETERNITY, some of the stuff forms consciousness on planets right? Compared to a eternal reality in which consciousness never existed, the fact that it can exist, and does in large numbers, and large potentials of achieving high amounts of complexity and perceived value, is meaningful right? Consciousness is the value, it is the meaning, it is the point.

You're having a "scope" problem. You have no clue if consciousness exists in large numbers. You see people around you and think this to be true, but you're not encompassing the scope of a universe. Earth and all the people on it mean zilch at the level of a universe. And again, even if you remove all the people on the earth, and any putative aliens, it all still exists, whether we're here or no. And it has no different "point" then than it would have before, that being, there is no "point" if by "point" you mean some universal meaning or plan or goal, because there is none. You're just coming up with "God Lite".

ImaFungi
.... more so wondering why plants exist....

wow. well, the process of photosynthesis pretty much is responsible for life on Earth. Not to mention, they are beautiful and extraordinary!


just catching up- I see everyone is way ahead of me-lol

Bedlam


Yet, in a real sense, you are, you just don't have the courage of your convictions. You see some universal meaning, or goal. But there isn't one. You're trying to project your opinion (or possibly fear of lack of purpose) onto things.

You are failing to realize the simple logic of the truth I speak. The primary thing that can ever matter/mean anything/have purpose/give purpose/experience purpose is consciousness. I gave examples as to why this is true, the main one being, an eternal reality of stuff without the existence of consciousness 'may as well not exist'/can not be experienced/can not be known. But, the reality that exists, is not eternally conciousless. The essence of reality somehow created consciousness, many times over, this is awesome. Now meaning can exist, honey and flowers can be meaningful to bees and have purpose, daming a river can be meaningful to a beaver, a watchmaker can find purpose and meaning building watches which people purchase because they find them meaningful, vegetables and fruit are meaningful to us.

I dont know if you failed to read my responses or failed to comprehend them, but I am mainly suggesting in this thread, a question, which is; is it possible that early conscious life on earth, the first 'non predictable' material, helped design early plant life, which then in tandem co evolved to build the relationship between plant and conscious creature, we know of today. Everything about your body is similar to a plant besides your consciousness right? In fact when someone loses their consciousness for a long time they are said to be in a vegetative state. A body is a network of robots, machines and factories, the mind is the CEO/government/dictator/central intelligence agency. Is humans over time selecting the best fruits from trees, thus letting the best genes carrying over, thus evolving foods quality over time natural selection? Is free market economics natural selection? Any machine you build is just like a plant, its not conscious, it has multiple parts, and it uses energy.

Argue me on this point at least; You are not conscious, there is no such thing as consciousness, you have no free will, everything you do is the result of the laws of physics and chemistry. You have no control over anything you do, everything you do the universe is forcing you to do. Just like the universe forced plants to exist, it forced you to exist, and it forces you to continue existing,

Why? What makes you think this? Why should there be a "point"? To whom or what is this universal point meaningful?

All things that exist, their existence is meaningful to them. The universal point is that, there is conscious awareness of existence and not. To have conscious awareness of existence allows all things that exist to exist.

No, not at all. You seem to be struggling with the concept that there might be no "point" at all to things. Except those that you create for yourself. The universe as a whole doesn't care. Zoom back a bit...now see the whole Milky Way galaxy about the size of a baseball. What can you do, there off in that spiral arm to the left, to make any difference at all at this level? Nada. Zip. Zero dot diddly. And that's a tiny fraction of the universe. Nothing you do is noticeable or meaningful to the universe as a whole. It might be to you. It might be to some people near you. But to the universe, you're not even noticeable, and never will be.

You are the universe, the big and the little was necessary to create the medium..which is where the consciousness dwells. Little particles zoom out to big galaxies, and in the middle, what they both make up, are planets and stars. On are which, consciousness experiencing itself and environment.

You're having a "scope" problem. You have no clue if consciousness exists in large numbers. You see people around you and think this to be true, but you're not encompassing the scope of a universe. Earth and all the people on it mean zilch at the level of a universe. And again, even if you remove all the people on the earth, and any putative aliens, it all still exists, whether we're here or no. And it has no different "point" then than it would have before, that being, there is no "point" if by "point" you mean some universal meaning or plan or goal, because there is none. You're just coming up with "God Lite".

Hm, no. The meaning is what is possible to do when parts of the stuff that exists becomes alive. A very novel proclamation, which happens to be true in abundance. Yes wipe out this planet with a meteor, ask the dinosaurs how that went, or we can just speak for them, wipe out half the planets, so what, consciousness is proven to be able to exist in times and spaces and places and it has and does now and most definitely will again. But this is still all going beyond my original inquisition regarding the nature of plants, and the 'weirdness' of their existences as life forms.

ImaFungi
You are failing to realize the simple logic of the truth I speak. The primary thing that can ever matter/mean anything/have purpose/give purpose/experience purpose is consciousness. I gave examples as to why this is true, the main one being, an eternal reality of stuff without the existence of consciousness 'may as well not exist'/can not be experienced/can not be known.

It's not a truth, it's an opinion frosted with a false dichotomy. The reality is that "stuff" doesn't care about you, will exist without you and still be the same.

But, the reality that exists, is not eternally conciousless. The essence of reality somehow created consciousness, many times over, this is awesome.

"Essence of reality" of course closely approximates to "God", eh? How about...consciousness evolved here, possibly an emergent behavior of a complex nervous system, then optimized further by evolution as a survival benefit? No creation, no intent.

Now meaning can exist, honey and flowers can be meaningful to bees and have purpose, daming a river can be meaningful to a beaver, a watchmaker can find purpose and meaning building watches which people purchase because they find them meaningful, vegetables and fruit are meaningful to us.

It may have meaning to YOU, the universe doesn't care.

I dont know if you failed to read my responses or failed to comprehend them...

More false dichotomy...how about a third option? I read it and don't agree, because I'm ok with things not having a "goal" or "meaning" or "point", in the sense of some universal plan.

...is it possible that early conscious life on earth, the first 'non predictable' material, helped design early plant life, which then in tandem co evolved to build the relationship between plant and conscious creature, we know of today.

Tough sell, since plants predate "early conscious life". Is it possible instead that "early conscious life", since it developed here, developed to utilize the plant life that was on hand? It seems to fit its niche because it evolved there, not because it came first then created the niche.

Everything about your body is similar to a plant besides your consciousness right?

I don't have chloroplasts or a cellulose cell wall. Maybe you do.

In fact when someone loses their consciousness for a long time they are said to be in a vegetative state.

I think you're taking that a bit too literally.

Argue me on this point at least; You are not conscious, there is no such thing as consciousness, you have no free will, everything you do is the result of the laws of physics and chemistry. You have no control over anything you do, everything you do the universe is forcing you to do. Just like the universe forced plants to exist, it forced you to exist, and it forces you to continue existing...

Why? That's not what I'm saying at all. You see some universal plan (God Lite) and think it created us. I see us evolving from what was there, having personal needs and purposes, but in terms of the Universe, it couldn't care less. Hell, even HERE once you're dead a few generations no one will remember doodly about you, you will be food for bacteria and worms, and as the poet said,

"Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
the lone and level sands stretch far away"

All things that exist, their existence is meaningful to them. The universal point is that, there is conscious awareness of existence and not. To have conscious awareness of existence allows all things that exist to exist.

Wrong. They exist whether they are aware of their existence or no. There is no universal point. If you weren't here, it would still be here. It doesn't care about you, or need you, or require you. You are meaningless except to yourself.

...consciousness is proven to be able to exist in times and spaces and places and it has and does now and most definitely will again. But this is still all going beyond my original inquisition regarding the nature of plants, and the 'weirdness' of their existences as life forms.

For all you know, we're it. But it doesn't matter, because it all still exists if you are here or I am here or we all die. We're not the "point", because there isn't one.

reply to post by ImaFungi


It's not destruction of energy. It's dissipation towards a state of equilibrium.
And actually, yeah, it does make sense.
It's a field called Bioenergetics.
Although something tells me you are looking for an entirely different answer to your questions

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PhotonEffect
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

It's not destruction of energy. It's dissipation towards a state of equilibrium.
And actually, yeah, it does make sense.
It's a field called Bioenergetics.
Although something tells me you are looking for an entirely different answer to your questions

Well basically its that, the materials of the earth cannot avoid the constant bombardment of suns energy, and biology is the forced reaction of that bombardment.

Soylent Green Is People

The "purpose" of any living thing (whether it be plants, bacteria, mosquitoes, dogs, or humans) is to reproduce in order to allow the species to live on to the next generation.

Most of the things a living organism does is for the purpose of living long enough to be able to pass its genetic material to create the next generation of that organism, which will live in order to do them same -- and so on, and so on.

edit on 4/7/2014 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Is there a purpose?

I thought it was all random time & chance.

Why would organisms "want" to survive?