The Koran on unbelievers.

(If I say something that is right, then God has inspired me. If I say something that is wrong, then it is my own mistake.)

The Koran is unique in that it directly addresses the unbelievers, their skepticism and their self confident assertions about the nature of our existence. The Koran contains a number of verses addressing the unbelievers (including polytheists) who lived during Mohammads time. We clearly see that they possessed the same attitudes as unbelievers in this age. Even though these verses originally addressed the unbelievers of 1400 years ago, we see that they can also be applied to unbelievers of this generation.

The unbelievers in their denial of God and His signs, rely solely upon their own intellects that have been shaped by various anti-theistic elements in the world around them. Some of their traits and charecteristics have been addressed in the following verses.


Demanding impossible evidence
And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us. Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out. Or you should cause the heaven to come down upon us in pieces as you think, or bring Allah and the angels face to face (with us). Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal apostle?
-Koran 17:90-92
Theists have witnessed or participated in debates and discussions where atheists, at every turn, deny the evidence of God's fingerprint in the natural world. Declaring "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", they stubbornly demand the impossible : direct evidence of God, who by definition exists outside our 3-Dimensional world and time. Such arguments games are designed to move the goalpost literally out of reach for theists. In this matter, it is not the Muslims duty to try and convince those who intend to disbelieve.



Claiming intellectual superiority
And when it is said to them: Believe as the people believe they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.
-Koran 2:13
The mockery of religion. Think of all the movies, comedies, music and literature produced in the last few decades alone that have been designed to ridicule religion, religious figures, values and people. Its safe to say that the mocking of theistic beliefs and values has evolved into a multi-million dollar industry.

Atheists look down upon theists and theistic belief and dismiss it as irrational and foolish. At the same time, they lay exclusive claim to intellectual traits such as rationality and logical thinking. In debates and discussions with theists, they claim an overall superior intellectual position solely because they don't hold beliefs involving God, afterlife, souls etc. God declares that they would know the truth at the end of their lives.



Making overconfident assertions
And they say: There is nothing but our life in this world; we live and die and nothing destroys us but time, and they have no knowledge of that; they only conjecture.
-Koran 45:24
God points out that unbelievers merely offer up guesswork regarding the nature of their existence. While an atheist confidently declares as fact that consciousness is terminated upon death, God promises that it won't and those who claimed otherwise will find out for themselves. Speaking of consciousness, Richard Dawkins claims in The God Delusion... that minds are a product of lifeless matter. Given how other atheists refuse to accept the existence of God who made minds, in all probability they too accept the same idea.

Such ideas lie solely in the realm of guesswork and conjecture, where one guess is as good as the other. No scientific process can ever demonstrate - as atheists say - that minds were the products of matter and that consciousness is extinguished upon death. I guess the fancy slogan "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" doesn't apply to claims made from a non-theistic perspective.



Spiritually lost
And whoever turns himself away from the remembrance of the Beneficent God, We appoint for him a Shaitan, so he becomes his associate. And most surely they turn them away from the path, and they think that they are guided aright: Until when he comes to Us, he says: O would that between me and you there were the distance of the East and the West; so evil is the associate!
-Koran 43:36-38
Those who deny God would go astray but would still continue to think they are on the right track, driven only by what they think is correct. That is, until the day he meets His Maker.



Concerned only with worldly affairs
Say: Shall We inform you of the greatest losers in (their) deeds? (These are) they whose labor is lost in this world's life and they think that they are well versed in skill of the work of hands. These are they who disbelieve in the communications of their Lord and His meeting, so their deeds become null, and therefore We will not set up a balance for them on the day of resurrection. Thus it is that their recompense is hell, because they disbelieved and held My communications and My apostles in mockery.
-Koran 18:103-106
Without a belief in God, the Day of Judgement and the afterlife, I guess unbelievers are naturally only concerned with the life of the world around them.
The elites of society, the intellectuals, professionals, celebrities, entertainers, actors, musicians, writers, artists, builders, businessmen etc., who lack belief in God and the Day of Judgement and mock the Divine Revelations will finally realize that their labor and their achievements during their lives on earth are absolutely useless on Judgement Day. All their ideas, their books, their works of art would not be considered, except perhaps to judge them. Those who thought they were well versed in skill of the work of hands especially at mocking God, His Divine Word and His messengers will have a lot to answer for.

And God knows best.

I've been reading about the Sunnah or sanna recently and how the same basic sounding word is in both in Buddhism and the Islam. There is a relationship to a specific consciousness in both religions. A path of life.

Now you also have the son of man in the bible in different places...Maybe it is supposed to be suuna man. A specific path in life. The word human means what defines man...sort of like the clothes he wears or visual traits. Got this from trying to figure out a primordial language from long ago. I have more reading to study this.

I do believe in god and also the collective consciousness of the earth. Mother earth has a vibrational frequency and intellect based on all life here. The earth is a part of god which is a much higher consciousness.

So I technically do not belong to any religion anymore but see similarities in all these religions and am trying to understand what god is. I respect god and the earth, the provider of life.

reply to post by rickymouse


The Bible speaks of God holding all things together .I would think that like a parent holding it's child the energies and vibrations are transferred and the child can sense it .Looking at the math in what is in creation there are patterns much like you would find in the brush strokes of a artist that has created a work . ...peace

It's not that I don't believe in the existence of god, but rather that I lack compelling evidence of him to justify the religious dogma spewed by many of his followers.

I live very happily without religion. It doen't consume my life. Sense and common courtesy dictate my actions. I don't find it necessary to concoct ways to convert "non-believers," or to influence the beliefs of others.

I live by a simple rule: treat others with courtesy and respect, even if I may not share their views.

I don't need a religion to drive me to condemn others or to justify discrimination based on inherent traits such as sex or sexual orientation. I don't need to instill fear in others, nor do I need religious rhetoric to force my social views on those who believe differently. I don't need to start daily rants about other religions. I'm free to accept all people for who they are rather than their theological belief system. If that's "bad," then I'm absolutely guilty. If an all loving god would choose to punish me for all eternity for using common sense that he supposedly gave me, then I question whether that's a god I wish to be associated with.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Thanks for the spiritual "bump".

Anyone on here engaged in conversation with skeptics about spirituality knows this tune…

And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us. Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out. Or you should cause the heaven to come down upon us in pieces as you think, or bring Allah and the angels face to face (with us). Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal apostle?
-Koran 17:90-92

They'd still scoff.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I at a loss to see the point of your post about what Islamic believers have been taught to think about non-muslims.

However looking at the points you raised: I see the assertion that a non-believer in Islam's claims come about because 'their attitude is shaped by anti-theist elements" This made me laugh simply because I look at Islam and think immediately of the stories told by charities concerning older men marrying school girls, sometimes as young as 8 and married to a man 2 -3 times her age.
Personally that is disgusting to me and basically rape which some so-called religious operator has condoned. I also see that the only people causing misery and making threats are Muslim extremists. We don't appear to have suicidal extremists blowing up strangers from any other religion. So my views are not based on anti-theist elements but on how Muslims behave and conduct themselves.

Demanding impossible evidence: Really, only because a group of people have made impossible claims of some happening or other in the first place.

Claiming intellectural superiority. Doesn't that merely come from the fact that many non-religious people live their lives within the law, help riase money for charity and do their neighbours good acts if required. They don't need some religious benefit case telling them to do these things, they are how a society works. If you look at Western Society it has adapted its laws to allow people of other religions to settle within it. What more is expected, it doesn't claim intellectual superiority it merely allows people to choose for themselves.

Making over-confident assertions. If people are living successfully without any need for religious belief, Islamists might see it as over-confidence but most people see it as normal and can hardly be accused of being over-confident in their own abilities.

I do like spirituality lost though. It appeals to me especially when stoning a woman to death. Quite where spirituality occurs in the stoners and the mobs these barbaric acts attract, is quite beyond any understanding of spirituality.

I've taken a long time reseaching what I now beieve in and having read through a lot of information now available from the past, the more I read, the more its plain to see the hierarchical layers of priests from every religion, who love to live off the people by claiming the job they do is essential and people may not question their exclusive yet unelected role and rule. Without forcing religious dogma down people's throats these men would not exist. A one to one with God and listening within excludes the need for these perverters of mankind and spirituality IMHO. Religious men cause more wars and trouble in communities than any other sector of society. Anyone doubting this only needs to see how tied into politics religion is because its how it survives.

So perhaps the only ones bothered about non-believers in Islam are the believers themselves.

Religion is used throughout history to justify a multitude of "sins".
2nd

I do agree that the western world can be very spiritually lost and agree with Islam that usury and greed is a sign of insanity. Rumi is incredible poet to me and when I hear his words I normally feel like I hearing words from an old soul brother. I have seen some Sufi videos on youtube and I also feel a connection there. Very beautiful souls. .

I also feel the same when I read Buddha and Jesus and when I hear spiritual Sikh music that seem like they are song by an angel in a higher level dimension.

There are both bad and good things about what is going on with Islam. But from my point of view. If Qur'an was gods direct meaning then there would not be ambiguity in the words that could be interpreted to mean whatever the priests want. If you want to use Qur'an as a starting point to find god then do so. But it is god that is holy/divine not the map that can be used to find the source of all.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Have you considered that perhaps you are the one being led astray? I have always, even since I was a boy, found Monotheism to be damning. The pathological way in which the sole deity reserves his immense wrath for those who cross him always disturbed me. For all you know this sole deity is a conqueror, roaming the universe, destroying any deity it encounters and subverting the faith of the beings that worshiped the conquered. You could very well be revering a cosmic monster.

The point of that above is this. No religion, spiritualist, atheist, or anyone else truly knows these things. I'm glad you have such a supreme confidence in the benevolence of your deity. I like to put what you would call "faith" into the essence of the universe that makes everything possible. I suppose that is another thing you have not considered? that there are forces that exist that are greater than your god?

sk0rpi0n
Demanding impossible evidence
And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us. Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out. Or you should cause the heaven to come down upon us in pieces as you think, or bring Allah and the angels face to face (with us). Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal apostle?
-Koran 17:90-92
Theists have witnessed or participated in debates and discussions where atheists, at every turn, deny the evidence of God's fingerprint in the natural world. Declaring "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", they stubbornly demand the impossible : direct evidence of God, who by definition exists outside our 3-Dimensional world and time. Such arguments games are designed to move the goalpost literally out of reach for theists. In this matter, it is not the Muslims duty to try and convince those who intend to disbelieve.

Well which is it??? You say by definition God exists outside our world and time yet at the same time His fingerprint or in other words direct evidence of his works is all around us. Religion itself is a telling of His interaction with us and the entire existence of everything from before time and the creator of all there is though right???? Yet direct evidence is impossible because He exists outside of everything and beyond all our senses???

So Gods everywhere, yet nowhere. He's involved and interacting with everything and nothing at the same time. He's here, but not here. He's answering prayers, creating miracles, creating all forms of life, watching everything and everyone at all times, influencing everything, and yet, he's outside all our perceptions.

Quite the catch 22 ya got there. Do I need to continue giving examples or do you see where I'm going with this???



[quote\Claiming intellectual superiority

Both sides do this so what's your point??

Making overconfident assertions

Really???? You're serious with this one??? Because total belief in something "outside our dimention" and invisible to all our senses or possible evidence and claiming this to be the absolute Truth isn't making overconfident assertions???

Okayyyyy.......


Concerned only with worldly affairs

Not true at all. Although completely ignoring such worldly matters while we are in fact suffering through them and spawning other forms of life which will live through this world after us does seem like something we should actually pay some time to, don't ya think??? That would be the responsible and caring thing to do after all.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


I had to star ya for that one pal.

Spoken like someone who obviously holds deeper thoughts and ideas but who hasn't lost all rational thinking. Good for you....Wish there were more like you around.

In fact you are a perfect example of why there isn't just "Believers and Non Believers". People are deeper and more varied in their thinking than just "Believer or Not". Most are usually a bit of both. They can see that there is some value in religion but without this total submission to its literal dogma.

mOjOm
reply to post by LittleByLittle

 

I had to star ya for that one pal.

Spoken like someone who obviously holds deeper thoughts and ideas but who hasn't lost all rational thinking. Good for you....Wish there were more like you around.

In fact you are a perfect example of why there isn't just "Believers and Non Believers". People are deeper and more varied in their thinking than just "Believer or Not". Most are usually a bit of both. They can see that there is some value in religion but without this total submission to its literal dogma.

I am because of my experience, a believer in higher level consciousness and source of all that is and since you are using that picture under your name I am pretty sure you have spiritual knowledge.

See you around.

I see the absurd oh the beauty to be heard to swim through the deceit and stories they sell, you're just another cog in a machine that doesn't seem to want to see what's real, in every instance I have to keep my thoughts concealed, or else I'll be thrown down and trampled by their heel and everything is to be torn down by you're and their version of the real.

It's still all the same, all a game and pass others the blame and in the design of a world I like to call mine just know that I can't stand on two sides of the line. A Faint fondness of mine, I'd try to give you a piece of my mind and say that you're blind as everything is eaten by my version of the real. But I know that people must decide for themselves, so don't try saying that atheists are bad because they ask for proof, because simply put it's their choice and criticising makes you just as bad.