CNN: How to really measure the 'Francis effect'

First thread, I looked at search and the new posts and threads and didn't see this - if it's already there will admin kindly please delete.

How to really measure the 'Francis effect'

In some ways, the "Pope Francis effect" doesn't seem very effective at all.
Despite the immense popularity the aged Argentine has won since his election last year, not a jot of doctrine has changed, nor has the Catholic Church swelled with American converts.

But...

...
He blasted bishops who spend money like they're auditioning for "MTV Cribs" and chastised priests who forget they're servants, not princes.

He called for a truce in the culture wars, refused to judge gay people and reached out to atheists.

He hugged a man covered with tumors, washed the feet of Muslim prisoners and wore a clown nose -- just for giggles.

He hired a group of cardinals -- including Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston -- to reform the curia, the Vatican bureaucracy that has a reputation for more shady deals than Tammany Hall.

He cold-called nuns, refused to live in the Apostolic Palace and ditched the regal trappings of papal life.

He called unfettered capitalism a false idol and trickle-down economics a sham.

Those declarations certainly impress me.
This article talks about several current and former clergymen in several countries and how they are responding.
Although tons of people aren't signing up yet.

Will this still-relatively-young man who appears very healthy in body and spirit be able to override the Catholic Church's reputation? He's definitely widely appreciated and popular.

I don't have a religion, but I dare say that if I were a young person and knew nothing about any of them (e.g. a secular unchurched person with an otherwise broad education) I might consider checking it out based on what Papa Francis has been saying and how he represents.

But like many who venture to be involved more deeply with any compelling organization or explore a compelling idea or philosophy, once one discovers and sees the inside workings and past history - in my life when that has happened I leave, disillusioned with the whole thing. Would a new convert pulled in by Francis's outspoken kindness be able to keep the faith that he felt?

Maybe it's too late for the Catholic Church? Trust once lost can often not be regained. Still his humanitarian and almost universalist attitude is attractive for sure, and like the article says lots of Catholics are no longer clenching their fists in anger and are weeping for joy at his public announcements.

If he'd open his own offshoot denomination, though, I'd consider it. I believe in what he says he stands for. If he finds that its impossible to fix the Church would he do that? Has any pope ever quit and started his own maverick religion?

Anyone else?

(One question I do have, though - does the Catholic Church accept adults who have been divorced? I kinda thought that was a big no-way?)

reply to post by BuzzyWigs


Yes, Francis has had an impact that his immediate predecessor (now sitting somewhere watching the world applaud the other guy, realizing that maybe his resignation did come from "God", or at least Goddess) did not, and in many ways he's much better than any of them since John hung out with the people in the early 1960s. But his legacy is hopefully yet to come and he'll make the kind of changes and healing that will make even his critics rejoice a little bit. Good work so far, but he has a long way to go.

(and something I thought of recently which I don't know if it's been put forward - maybe he moved into the small room in the hotel so that nobody could claim he was sneaking little boys in. Probably not, he moved into it to show that he didn't need the massive "apartment" that the other popes lived in, but that openness with his living arrangements has the alibi-factor as a side benefit in case anybody starts a rumor about Altar Boy Bobby).

reply to post by BuzzyWigs


The first step to winning converts is to establish a healthy relationship with the world. Francis is working on that.

BuzzyWigs
(One question I do have, though - does the Catholic Church accept adults who have been divorced? I kinda thought that was a big no-way?)

Acceptance by the church means absolutely nothing! The bible that they pretend to teach from, it accepts absolutely everyone, with no exclusions. The catholic church is completely backwards. One can name hundreds of examples where the bible says one thing and they do the opposite.


I personally don't believe the bible, but I think that he is such a good guy, and he's on the right track. If Catholics were to ever save their image, it would be by emulating this pope.

reply to post by Aleister


Maybe his humility is genuine and has the added happy effect of alibi...
he sure seems genuine anyway.

Yes though agreed he has a long way to go and lots of brokenhearted parishioners to mend. I still don't trust the Roman Catholic Church, but it reminds me of when a bad king or bloodline finally gets ousted and a good one comes in that people begin to breathe easier and put the blame where it belongs - on the bad characters and not necessarily the entire structure.

There are good priests and loving people in the Church I bet they're relieved.

Thanks for your thoughts. Who knows in another few hundred years, provided the human race is still here, all of that will be water under the altar and hope can be restored.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

yes he really is, and fearlessly. I like him a lot, although like the poster after you says the Bible is, in my opinion, not reliable.
But lots of people think it's good enough to use as a life instructions guide.

I think I'd say one thing is for certain. The fact that he has done things so different compared to popes of the past is remarkable. He's gone against the grain of his own church and done things in a more humanist way.

This is the first step I believe, in creating peace. Acceptance is the only way. Christians may now learn finally that God is accepting, (seeing as he/she created people the way they are) I Dont think that pope francis's ways are the same ways as much of the entire catholic churches and its just a matter of time before he's assassinated. (I hope that doesn't happen of course)

If "Jesus" came back for the second coming, nobody would flock to him because he's to loving and caring. The world would not accept his ways.

BuzzyWigs

...
He blasted bishops who spend money like they're auditioning for "MTV Cribs" and chastised priests who forget they're servants, not princes.

He called for a truce in the culture wars, refused to judge gay people and reached out to atheists.

He hugged a man covered with tumors, washed the feet of Muslim prisoners and wore a clown nose -- just for giggles.

He hired a group of cardinals -- including Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston -- to reform the curia, the Vatican bureaucracy that has a reputation for more shady deals than Tammany Hall.

He cold-called nuns, refused to live in the Apostolic Palace and ditched the regal trappings of papal life.

He called unfettered capitalism a false idol and trickle-down economics a sham.

Those declarations certainly impress me.

I don't want to offend any Catholics, but I am less impressed. Sure these things look good, but I can easily see a public relations firm suggesting these moves to improve the image of the Church with very little risk or cost.

If Pope Francis were to begin a campaign against what I see as the number one sin that is causing the most suffering in the world today, then I would be impressed. That sin would be usury. When he spearheads a charge against the IMF, I'll sing his praises.

reply to post by VictorVonDoom

That sin would be usury. When he spearheads a charge against the IMF, I'll sing his praises.

I think he already rather did do, with his maligning of rampant capitalism and trickle-down being a sham?
He's only been in charge for a year (this week).

I'm sure business dictates he "Go against the grain". These people are almost out of cards to play on the psyche of the common people. These people are selected for a reason, and they behave as they are told to. The abominations working behind them are bigger than they and cannot be ignored with impunity. It must be a lucrative career to be in the religion business.
And no, I can't prove that. I just have no faith in faith except the faith I use to debunk faith itself.

reply to post by drz400

If "Jesus" came back for the second coming, nobody would flock to him because he's to loving and caring. The world would not accept his ways.

Is it inconceivable that Francis is the second coming? I believe the ascended masters return fairly regularly. I believe the same spirit (love) returns for each generationish.

reply to post by BuzzyWigs


Pope Francis seems to be progressive. That is required for a religion so corrupt and rife with moral hypocrisy. Go back farther in time and the more anti-human it was. There's simply no redemption for conservative Catholics, the only hope is to go forward.

I'm not interested in joining a meme, but the Pope is a leader and this leader has my respect. May he live a long and productive life.

BuzzyWigs
reply to post by VictorVonDoom

 

That sin would be usury. When he spearheads a charge against the IMF, I'll sing his praises.

I think he already rather did do, with his maligning of rampant capitalism and trickle-down being a sham?
He's only been in charge for a year (this week).

I understand what you are saying, but there is a difference between capitalism and usury. Capitalism, like communism or socialism, is not in itself inheritantly evil. Like a hammer, it can be used to build or destroy. Usury has only one purpose, financial slavery.

I realize he hasn't been Pope very long. I'm just saying I'm not too impressed yet. Another year, who knows? He does seem to be making headway exposing the Vatican Bank, I'll give him a big thumbs up, there.

reply to post by BuzzyWigs


No worries on the divorce as since you were not married in the church you were never really married at all. Just saying.
Because I was baptised a Catholic and never married in the church I have been living in sin for thirty some odd years and have three illegitimate children two of whom will never get into heaven because they are not baptised. Oh well.

reply to post by AutumnWitch657


Grin.
Thanks - I'm really not intending to sign up - I can get the benefit of understanding the mysteries of religion(s) without 'adhering' to one. One kid is baptized (Anglican, as am I), the other is not. I was married in the Anglican church.

I think all those "you can't come in" rules are rather silly in their exclusionariness. Seems to me anyone wanting to go to any church at any time ought to be able to do so, without stigma or creds. Like the Ekklesia Gnostica - takes all comers...including Wiccans (the only religion I temporarily adopted after I reached adulthood - more of an experiment than anything else - and I enjoyed it! Felt very close to nature.)

But, I do wonder if an adult decides to convert - do they have to present a CV?
Undergo a background check?

reply to post by InverseLookingGlass

I'm not interested in joining a meme, but the Pope is a leader and this leader has my respect. May he live a long and productive life.

Indeed. I'll sit by you in the peanut gallery...mkay?

Pope Francis seems to be progressive. That is required for a religion so corrupt and rife with moral hypocrisy.

Not just in his religion, but the leadership of the whole world - corrupt and rife with moral hypocrisy. Except for him, if he can stomach to stay there while his underlings squawk and bicker.

Many popes have been assassinated.
One that I know of has quit.
Have any started their own church (aside from Luther and Calvin and Henry VIII, of course - who were not Popes)?

In any case to a refreshing change of the breeze!

DeadGhost

BuzzyWigs
(One question I do have, though - does the Catholic Church accept adults who have been divorced? I kinda thought that was a big no-way?)

Acceptance by the church means absolutely nothing! The bible that they pretend to teach from, it accepts absolutely everyone, with no exclusions. The catholic church is completely backwards. One can name hundreds of examples where the bible says one thing and they do the opposite.


I personally don't believe the bible, but I think that he is such a good guy, and he's on the right track. If Catholics were to ever save their image, it would be by emulating this pope.

And this is the problem.

Why bend over backwards to appease people like you? You go into how this is a good thing and necessary, but then you follow up with how you will never believe anyhow.

it seems to me that if you are the norm, Francis is compromising his faith and leading many other to do so only to attempt to sow spiritual fruit in mostly barren ground.

reply to post by ketsuko

And this is the problem.

Why bend over backwards to appease people like you? You go into how this is a good thing and necessary, but then you follow up with how you will never believe anyhow.

Wait.


What? I seem to recall it was you who said that people with open minds wouldn't even consider it no matter what is included in the irrefutable evidence that God exists.

I'm saying of course I would, and I'm not understanding the tension.


Sorry. ??

Pope Francis has made traditional decisions not reported. I love he said, Mary is above the Apostles. Of course.

His caring for the poor, Francis went out all the time among the poor in his diocese in Argentina. He wears his old shoes
and his clothes do not look like he has them fitted by a tailor.

Thanks for your thread OP.

The Holy Father doesn't speak English, beware the translations. One error, Francis actually said "unfettered consumerism ."

reply to post by colbe


I'll see if I can find his original speech, you bring up an interesting and very astute point. Translation and interpretation are tricky things.
I'd like to read it in Spanish. Do you happen to have a link?


EDIT: okay, I've looked at the Spanish version as well as the English version. The statements are in chapter 2, this is paragraph 54 in English:

54. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain, and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase. In the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.

No to an economy of exclusion (c/p from the original online transcript/text at the Vatican site)

Here it is in Spanish:

54. En este contexto, algunos todavía defienden las teorías del «derrame», que suponen que todo crecimiento económico, favorecido por la libertad de mercado, logra provocar por sí mismo mayor equidad e inclusión social en el mundo. Esta opinión, que jamás ha sido confirmada por los hechos, expresa una confianza burda e ingenua en la bondad de quienes detentan el poder económico y en los mecanismos sacralizados del sistema económico imperante. Mientras tanto, los excluidos siguen esperando. Para poder sostener un estilo de vida que excluye a otros, o para poder entusiasmarse con ese ideal egoísta, se ha desarrollado una globalización de la indiferencia. Casi sin advertirlo, nos volvemos incapaces de compadecernos ante los clamores de los otros, ya no lloramos ante el drama de los demás ni nos interesa cuidarlos, como si todo fuera una responsabilidad ajena que no nos incumbe. La cultura del bienestar nos anestesia y perdemos la calma si el mercado ofrece algo que todavía no hemos comprado, mientras todas esas vidas truncadas por falta de posibilidades nos parecen un mero espectáculo que de ninguna manera nos altera.

No a una economía de la exclusión

He directly addressed the folly of "trickle-down" (derrame) theory in the context of the previous (para 53) :

Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.

Human beings are themselves considered consumer goods to be used and then discarded. We have created a “throw away” culture which is now spreading. It is no longer simply about exploitation and oppression, but something new. Exclusion ultimately has to do with what it means to be a part of the society in which we live; those excluded are no longer society’s underside or its fringes or its disenfranchised – they are no longer even a part of it. The excluded are not the “exploited” but the outcast, the “leftovers”.

These paragraphs, then, can be looked at from both directions, I see:
too much consumerism
the fact that consumers are "throw aways"

Same subject, different approaches.

His words, it seems from what I've looked at, were 'paraphrased' by the press to represent the angle which the reviewer/reporter preferred to address.

He did mention "trickle-down" specifically, and also consumerism.
Not a pretty picture at all, either way.

Thanks for the reply, colbe, and for prompting me to look at the originals.