School Causes Girl To Get Frost Bite

One time in high school our fire alarm went off (not a drill but not a fire, just smoke from the manufacturing lab) so we were told to exit the building immediately and to not grab our bags or anything, just like in the drills. Well we kept our backpacks near the door, so I grabbed mine on the way out and got in trouble, however I was the only student to grab my bag and go to my next class on time, everyone else had to stay and was late to their next class hahahaha

defcon5

whitewave
I actually wrote some of that trauma center's policy and procedures but I'm not an automaton and am capable of thinking for myself.

Your policies and procedures are nothing more then a “checklist” the same as a pilot uses to ensure they don't skip a step in the heat of the moment. In an emergency do you want a pilot who is just winging it, or one that follows the emergency procedures to the letter? I'll give you a hint, Capt Skully followed his to the letter. Those procedures should be based on industry wide “lessons learned”, “best practices”, and in the case of a pilot thousands of hours of simulation time. If you think that you can “wing it” better than all that accumulated knowledge, then I wish you the best of luck. Eventually your luck will run out though, and the first thing that you will be asked when they bring you in to investigate what happens is, “did you follow the policies and procedures for that scenario?”

whitewave
We'll have to let the lawyers battle out the rest.

If they followed their P&P then there is nothing for them to battle. You put them on a court stand and all they have to say is that, “we followed the state approved P&P to the letter”. Someone would then have to go and attempt to sue the state over it. As it sounds like there few damages here, the reality is that is most likely never going to happen.

The policies and procedures for a fire /fire drill (which we DID follow in that we got all patients and visitors out) did not account for an ICU being on the 9th floor. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put an ICU on the 9th freaking floor was an idiot. The "designated area" to which we were supposed to rally everyone (patients and visitors) was on the same floor as the fire. Obviously that wasn't well thought out either. We got everyone to safety in record time and the policy/procedure was later changed based on our reactions to reflect what we did in the situation. In other words, the procedure for dealing with a fire on the 9th floor ICU was changed to: "Do what they did".

And nurses can be sued for failure to follow "standards of care", not just for not following policy and procedures. Gone are the days when you can plead, "I was just following Dr.'s orders". You're expected to have enough intelligence to know when you're told to do something stupid and refuse to do it. Maybe teachers are not held to such standards?

There are any number of unanswered questions in the report. If it took 10 minutes to evacuate everyone, was the girl first to be evacuated or last? Was she evacuated at the 2 minute time frame or the 10 minute time frame? Did anyone say, "screw this! Who's got their car keys?" Was the sweater and coat offered to her as soon as she came out of the building or after she started shivering and stamping her feet? I've done plenty of triage and an evacuation can usually be handled with one less person. How many people does it take to keep the doors open and wave your arms at the exiting hordes?

And you didn't answer my question either because it wouldn't serve your cause. What should have been done if she came out in flames? Should she continue to stand in line burning to death until everyone was evacuated and accounted for? We don't know the severity of her frostbite and, really, it shouldn't matter. She suffered damage/injury while in the care of the school.

And to answer your question about the pilot "winging it", ask any pilot what they would do if the air traffic controller came on the radio and shouted "Turn Left Now!" The best pilots know WHEN to wing it and when to strictly follow P&P.

Teachers are being asked to take on more and more responsibility and, even with training/drills/practices, not everyone will respond according to Hoyle in a crisis. At the very least, an investigation needs to occur with an eye toward rewriting the P&P and certainly the girl's medical bills should be covered.

reply to post by defcon5


70mph in -30 Some of your comments on the cold must have been for the sake of hyperbole, or maybe you are like a few Finnish Minnesotans that can't really feel cold. But the normal human, and I am counting myself as one, one that lived for 10 years near Duluth Minnesota and even fairly recently retrieved my mail in barefeet and sweats when it was -20 but it was a mad dash and my feet were burning when I got back inside...100 yards about from door to box back to door. I even did your snowmobile experience in February 1996, Duluth area, Governor closed schools because of the cold that day. I know cold and I hate it. I would have been crying like a little school girl wearing nothing but a wet swimuit...wait...that is what we are talking about...Not a member of the Polar Bears swim group...Not a Finnish Sauna group....just a normal Minnesotan that has learned to survive or tolerate this crappy cold in the winter and it seems is dumber than the rest of her classmates. (I believe I mentioned that one of the possibilities was that she wanted to show off or that it was by her choice type of thing) and there was more to the story like I said there had to be. The point is...yes, I really have one.......It is all relative. Some people can get their teeth drilled without any Novocaine, some others need to be knocked out. Cold effects different people, differently. Charts and graphs aren't going to tell you that. That reminds me, does that chart take into consideration a 120lb girl basically in the buff standing in one spot or hoping in one spot in those conditions?

You didn't mention experiencing DF frost bite...(frost bite that most male cross country skiers have had brushes with or have friends in the sport that have had it..."top of your member" if I didn't give you enough clues) That was the last time in my life I ever cried because of pain I was suffering, that was in 1985. I was a high school senior and I was crying in the bus in front of boy and girl team members and holding myself. When you reach a certain level of pain you really lose any inhibitions or notion of dignity...don't tell me none of you know what I'm talking about. It isn't like fingers and toes that any of us that played outdoor hockey back in the 1970's when you wore just two pairs of regular socks, and your parents tied your skates so tight because they thought it would magically result in a little kid not looking like they were skating with two broken ankles, so poor circulation and only got relief between periods when a parent would rub your numb feet while you sucked on your numb fingers.

You can guess that I am no longer located in Florida and apparently am quite bitter about it.

Res Ipsa
70mph in -30 Some of your comments on the cold must have been for the sake of hyperbole,

Not at all.
We used to regularly snowmobile up north in temps pushing -30, and when you were in an open area it was not uncommon to hit speeds up to 70mph. At that speed I have no idea what the windchill would be, but I can tell you that your breath freezes into ice on the inside glass of your helmet in seconds. Obviously spending time like that in such an area I have fallen through the ice quite a few times over the years. When you go through the ice, it burns, and you actually get out with steam coming off your clothing. I'm not saying that it's a pleasant experience, but in a possible life and death situation its preferable to the more deadly alternative.

Res Ipsa
You didn't mention experiencing DF frost bite...

That's right because I've never had it worse then second degree, and from the article I would have to say that neither did she.

Because the school followed protocol doesn't mean the girl had to!
And because she did she suffered!
I'm sure disobeying a teachers request and disobeying fire safety protocol is not the same, and am certain the latter is much more frowned upon!
When it comes to punishment, who would fair worse, the school for not complying with fire safety, or a child who ignored a teachers request???

Some questions;
Why was she in a bathing suit?
Was their pool indoors or outdoors?
Was the pool anywhere near the location of the science department where the alarms were triggered?
How many others were in a swimsuit?
Did they suffer frostbite?

Personally I feel these are reasonable questions!

Is it fair to condemn the school without this knowledge?...not really IMO!



Peace.

I'm kind of glad this little girl didn't follow her own instincts , she has shown us how retarded teachers are now. I know a teacher, I had a little debate with them about their need to have the local school on lock down like a prison, even though we live in a very safe small town. It turned into "I'm taking my ball and going home", haha. They say its because they want to keep someone with a gun out. BS. The office is the only door that's always opened. If someone had a gun why would they not just go through there. That one opened door makes all the other locked ones useless. Not according to my genius teacher friend though.

Mind you I also witnessed this same person attempt to stop a leak in a hose from a pump to an above ground pool, by PLACING A BATHROOM SCALE UNDERNEATH IT! It blew my mind! Then she said "Well, that didn't work." WOAH NO SH!%. To this day I have no clue as to how putting a scale under it was supposed to stop water gushing out of it. It was possibly the single dumbest thing ive ever witnessed in my entire life, and this person teachers seniors in high school.

After this whole thing I saw that (some) teachers really are just plain stupid. Even simple logic has no place when their superiors tell them otherwise. That's exactly what they are teaching the kids too.

ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe

 

Oh yah and did I mention that we get weather alerts around here saying that when there's a severe wind chill, people can get frostbite in just minutes. Apparently the personnel there do not know much about frostbite.

edit on 5-3-2014 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

I've been out in temperatures of -15C with a windchill of -35C, and yes you can get frostbite in minutes. It will burn your hands no different from a bucket of hot water. Back in the mid 1990's, there was a story from Toronto about a teenager who went out of her apartment block in a just a miniskirt. She ended up losing both her legs.

The one who was responsible for such a brainless sub human decision should be unclothed and doused with a bucket of liquid nitrogen.
I would sue.
Likely from a jail cell for beating the holy hell out of some idiots.

reply to post by whitewave


You make many excellent points as do others. Simply "following procedure" or "going by the rules" are not acceptable excuses for stupidity, except possibly in the world of public education.
Your example of a medical facility is an excellent one. Most medical facilities are evolving and the disaster plans need to evolve with them but it rarely does. During the first year of my stint on such a committee our hospital was in a construction phase with departments being moved as construction permitted. It was a nightmare to try to figure out disaster plans for a two year construction plan. We just breathed a big sigh of relief when the construction was finished and blessed our luck that no disasters occurred in that difficult period of time.
When I was in the medical field there were numerous times when I came across incorrect/dangerous doctor's orders. I've stood nose to nose with lots of the demi-gods in white coats telling them that I was not going to follow their order until they signed a release saying that they understood that the hospital could not cover their actions should liability issues arise as a result of their flawed order. Their repeated assault went something like this: "That is part of my protocol. It's my license on the line. blah...blah...how dare you challenge my protocol?" and on and on. My response was to always repeat my reasons, show them the literature on which I based my decision and hand them the release to sign. Despite them getting their blood pressure to what seemed dangerous levels from time to time and having some stamp their feet (yes, literally, a grown man with an MD standing in the hallway stomping his feet!) I never had one sign the release and order me to do something for which he and he alone was responsible.
Someone in this incident is to be held responsible---someone on the committee designing emergency responses had to have known that there was a pool in the school and thus the possibility of this very thing occurring. At least in a thinking society....

reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe


WHAT! She was in a bathing suit and wet?! OMG I'd have gone to jail if this were my child.

How stupid are the people of that school? Looks like VERY stupid.

They should all lose their jobs. What they did amounted to child abuse! If the mother or anyone else had done such a thing they'd be hauled off in handcuffs and charged with abuse and/or neglect.

I hope this parent sues the crap out of that school.

There is nothing they could say at that school that would ever justify what they did.

I don't know how they could sit there and just let it happen.

mblahnikluver
OMG I'd have gone to jail if this were my child.

You would not go to jail for sending someone outside in the cold because of a fire alarm. Now if it had been a fire drill, yes, they could claim negligence or intent, but that was not the case here.

mblahnikluver
I hope this parent sues the crap out of that school.

To sue someone you have to be able to prove damages and you have to show that they were guilty of some type of negligence that caused those damages.

reply to post by defcon5

To sue someone you have to be able to prove damages and you have to show that they were guilty of some type of negligence that caused those damages.

Under ANY circumstances, putting a wet, swim suit clad, child into an environment where the wind chill is -25 is not only negligent, it is child abuse. I do not care what the circumstances are! Then they left her in that environment for 10 minutes.

You can split all the hairs you want. You can make all the excuses you want, it is and always will be negligent abuse of a minor. She suffered frostbite. I don't care how minor it was or how your superman physique could handle such a situation, it is wrong, it will always be wrong, the teachers are retarded.

Following orders and procedures is no bloody excuse, that one was sorted out during the Nuremberg Trials.

This should never have happened. I don't think you have children, do you?

P

reply to post by pheonix358


I asked previously, either people skipped it conveniently or genuinely don't know the answer, maybe you do!!!

How many children were in swimsuits at the time?
& Did they suffer any form of frostbite?
Or was she swimming all alone?

Only with these questions answered can we claim negligence!

As much as you talk of procedure, there is still a procedure to adhere to... countrywide!!!
This is hardly Nuremberg, and such a comparison is quite judgemental to sugarcoat it!!!

Peace!

reply to post by CharlieSpeirs


As far as I can ascertain from the thread, there were two girls remaining in the pool when the alarm went off. One had her clothes near the pool and picked them up as they were being shepperded out, this girls clothes were in the locker room and she was not allowed to retrieve them.

I truly do not see what this has do do with anything. She was one of the last ones out for whatever reason .... so what. Common sense would dictate that a teacher accompany her to the change room to quickly retrieve her clothes. It was not like there were flames licking at their heels.

P

reply to post by pheonix358


Well that does change things to an extent!
I'd still say she should have kept her clothes closer to the pool, I was hesitant too because I also wondered if it wasn't allowed and changing rooms were the only option!
A lesson learned for all parties I guess...

But the school does have a little less backing from me if she was the only one!
Common sense also dictates that they didn't know how long it would be before flames did start trailing their steps, but I definitely see your point!

Thanks for the update P!

Peace.

CharlieSpeirs
How many children were in swimsuits at the time?
& Did they suffer any form of frostbite?
Or was she swimming all alone?

30 of them.
29 of them managed to follow instructions, get out of the pool and get dressed.

pheonix358
Common sense would dictate that a teacher accompany her to the change room to quickly retrieve her clothes. It was not like there were flames licking at their heels.

1) Some schools like hospitals have fire doors that automatically release and seal to stop the spread of fire.
2) People don't die in a fire from the “flames” they die from smoke inhalation.
3) Fire alarms are not just used for fires, they are used for many situations including gas leaks, or even an armed person in the building. You cannot remotely tell why the alarm was set off, or how immediate that the danger is. In the area of the pool you have additional dangers due to the presence of chlorine.

reply to post by defcon5


So I was right to hold back the lashing tongue towards the school!!!

Dear oh dear, awfully judgemental bunch ATS can be sometimes...
Or just overly sympathetic because the word "child" has been thrown about...
Well the last I heard the definition of child was not in fact "braindead moron"!!!
14...she's should know better!


Appreciate the input DC!


Peace!

defcon5

Kangaruex4Ewe
Yet there was no more than ONE teacher that could offer a student at their school a coat? At least one more coat to stand on could have possibly prevented the frostbite. One more coat.

Did no one but me read the article AND watch the video?
She was given a teachers coat and a students sweater.

Yes... "eventually," which means, you know, not right away? And probably only AFTER her toes began to turn white. By the way, I've been nursing for 24 years, and I know how to triage, and that girl would have been priority, even if there were 1000 students to 100 teachers. That's a 10:1 ratio, which is very manageable. I've seen way worse patient to nurse ratios on the floor. So if you're a teacher, and you've got 10 students to "triage," one girl is in a soaking wet swimsuit with just a (probably) wet towel around her, and the rest are dressed and have shoes... hmm...I would think she's a priority.

Also, frostbite, even if it's not "deep," can turn gangrenous very quickly. That's too much harm for the situation.

Just my thinking, and I doubt it'll change.