Originally posted by babloyi
You said you want to have a discussion. I hope you mean it, and are not solely doing this for the purpose of denigrating Islam.
I look at what's happening around the world and am dismayed by the actions of so-called "extremist Muslims". When I read the text from the Qur'an
what I find is that these actions are mostly supported by the teachings of these texts. This "extreme" form of Islam is indeed the fastest growing
religion in the world; especially throughout Southeast Asia. It is not I denigrating Islam. What I find interesting is that people who ask tough
questions are often labeled "Islamophobes" while the "moderate" Muslims rarely ever (at least publicly) vociferiously speak out against the
actions of "extremists". I suspect the reason this is is that their actions are supported by the teachings of the Qur'an and in compliance of
Islam is a VERY tolerant religion with regard to other religions.
There are approximately 30 references (Pikthal translation) similar to the following:
"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites ! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end."
This, and others like it, are very specific as they describe the ultimate destiny of those who don't follow Islam. This is INTOLERANCE! Whenever a
group a people are perceived to be inferior they are treated as such--unless they have some form of protection. Under Islam, this protection is
Dhimitude; whereby non-believers must pay a tax (Jizya) to ensure their protection. In addition, they are not allowed to build Churches or publicly
stae their religious preferences. Now, whether or not this Jizya is enforced in the Arab nations--I honestly don't know. But the Qur'an says that
this is the way it should be.
Muslims are not allowed to burn non-muslim worshipping places, they have to treat non-belligrents with equity (60:8),
The problem is the definition of "non-beligrents". Most arab Muslims view our presence in the Holy lands as beligerent. We bring the "stench" of
apostates and our being there confirms Zionism (in their view).
31:15. But if they strive with thee to make thee ascribe unto Me as partner that of which thou hast no knowledge, then obey them not. Consort with
them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who repenteth unto Me. Then unto Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what ye used to
This means: Do not obey those who have no knowledge of me (Allah). Associate and be kind, and follow the path of those who [repent unto Allah
(Muslim). In other words: Be kind to fellow Muslims.
17:53. Tell My bondmen to speak that which is kindlier. Lo! the devil soweth discord among them. Lo! the devil is for man an open foe.
This means: Tell my slaves to speak kindly [to one another]. The devil spread will [spread tension and strife from disagreement] among them.
This has nothing to do with dis-believers and idolators.
6:34. Messengers indeed have been denied before thee, and they were patient under the denial and the persecution till Our succour reached them. There
is none to alter the decisions of Allah. Already there hath reached thee (somewhat) of the tidings of the messengers (We sent before).
This means the messengers who have been denied were patient until [assistance] reached them. Again--nothing to do with non-Muslims.
9:6. And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad) , then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah; and afterward convey
him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
They are protected if they are willing to hear the word of Allah. What happens if they don't?: (you had to expect this)
9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for
them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
There is no "subjugation" of non-muslims living under muslim rule allowed.
From Sahih Muslim Book 019 Number 4294:
"If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya (tax on non-Mulsims). If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands.
If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."
If you wish to know the "true nature" of Islam, it is a better idea to read the Quran than to go to some Anti-Islam websites.
I believe the "true nature" of Islam is revealed in the Qur'an, Sharia, Hadith and most certainly, not the least of which, should also include
world events. BTW: I'm not saying all Muslims are evil barbarians. Far from it. But when Some Muslims can blow themselves up (along with innocent
women and children) and fly planes into buildings all the while proclaiming they're doing this in the name of Allah, one hs to wonder where they get
their guidance. One also has to wonder why the so-called "moderate Muslims" are relatively quiet on this subject in a public forum.
I would be remiss if I didn't include, in the spirit of this thread, today's ROP Update:
Translated from: frontpage.fok.nl...
Holland: Hindu temple under attack by Muslims
A Hindu temple in The Hague, the Ram Mandir, is frequently being attacked by a group of Moroccan youth.
Young Hindus are so fed up with the situation they want to take matters into their own hands. Morrocans shove dog feces through the mailbox and have
broken into the temple twice, stolen a statue, urinated inside and stolen money from the moneybox. Mister S. Ramdhani, a Hindu priest, says: “They
spit, don’t let visitors pass through, robbed two elderly ladies and then threatened them not to press charges. Our secretary was attacked with a
Ramdhani doesn’t want young Hindus and Moroccans to clash. “If groups start fighting each other we get a very bad situation. We can’t have that
here in Holland.” Ramdhani is very embittered about the case. Last year he was given a ribbon by the queen for his contribution to the integration
of foreigners in the neighbourhood. Every year thousands of students from The Hague come to the temple to learn more about the Hindu faith; it’s
also a haven for troubled teens. Since 9/11 Ramdhani has been trying to reach out to Christians and Muslims.
The trouble caused by Moroccan youth has made a dent in Ramdhani’s idealism. He’s thinking about no longer attending the 9/11 meetings. “I feel
discriminated against. Why they have to choose our temple? There is a mosque nearby. Why don’t they go over there to cause trouble? They must hate
the Hindu faith. Otherwise I don’t know.”
Rabin Baldewsingh, a member of the city council for the social-democrats, asked mayor Deetman for help. The police says it’s ‘on the agenda’.