I've read all these posts and this is how it seems to me.

We have all seen how Christian fundamentalists can twist the messages of love and tolerance found in the Christian Bible to mean they should act in ways that are quite opposite of what was actually written.

And what we are seeing now from so-called moderate muslims is much the same, but done in the opposite direction! The text of the Koran seems very harsh and intolerant, with the moderates trying to make it sound quite the opposite.

Are we getting purposeful disinformation from moderate muslims? Remember the old saying, "Actions speak louder than words.". Paraphrasing from a poster on another thread who said "How can islam call itself the religion of peace, when the reality around the world is that wherever there are muslims, there is also conflict?". Hard to find a place in the world where muslims are at peace with their non-muslim neighbors. Can anyone think of even one? But it's easy to name the places where conflict exists.

Actions do speak louder than words.

[edit on 2/25/2005 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
I've read all these posts and this is how it seems to me.

We have all seen how Christian fundamentalists can twist the messages of love and tolerance found in the Christian Bible to mean they should act in ways that are quite opposite of what was actually written.

And what we are seeing now from so-called moderate muslims is much the same, but done in the opposite direction! The text of the Koran seems very harsh and intolerant, with the moderates trying to make it sound quite the opposite.

Are we getting purposeful disinformation from moderate muslims? Remember the old saying, "Actions speak louder than words.". Paraphrasing from a poster on another thread who said "How can islam call itself the religion of peace, when the reality around the world is that wherever there are muslims, there is also conflict?". Hard to find a place in the world where muslims are at peace with their non-muslim neighbors. Can anyone think of even one? But it's easy to name the places where conflict exists.

Actions do speak louder than words.

[edit on 2/25/2005 by centurion1211]

Great post Centurian

You ask some great questions. There does exist an organization here in the US that on the surface it seems would be a great way to bridge differences in understanding of Islam for non-Muslims. That organization is called CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations). However, with one of its senior directors proclaiming that he believes Islam should be the "dominant religion in the US" and others being found tied to Hamas, CAIR has become an organization that labels those who criticize or ask tough questions about Islam as "Islamophobes". CAIR is even using our legal system to silence those who otherwise criticize Islam. My question is: WHY? These actions on their part leads me to believe that there is something more sinister going on with Islam and certainly does nothing to improve our relationship!!

It will be interesting to see what happens with those lawsuits as counter lawsuits have been filed against CAIR.

BTW: to answer your question Centurion "Hard to find a place in the world where muslims are at peace with their non-muslim neighbors. Can anyone think of even one?" I believe I can: Turkey. Over the past several decades they have become more secular and "strict followers" or "extremists" are not as pervasive--for now. But there does seem to have been a back-lash in the last 5-10 years. Of course the Turks and the Greeks have been very cold neighbors for eyons.

And you'll notice that when those questions are asked, the so-called moderate muslims disappear - because they have no answers.

[edit on 2/25/2005 by centurion1211]

Hello Centurion. Have patience. I am not hiding from anyone. At least wait 12 hrs before saying something like that. There IS such a thing as time zones.
Seems you came into the game a little too late. If you read the entire thread, you would have noticed that I counterpointed every point that Freedom put forward, and corrected Freedom whenever wrong information was given. You seem to be very knowledgeable about Islam, to be able to make a claim that the text is "harsh and intolerant". I HAVE studied the Quran, so I am reasonably certain that I know a little more about it then you. I am not trying to distort it's message, just correcting mis-information that is being provided here. You say that you have fundementalists who distort the Christian Bible to further their own means, but refuse to believe that the same could be happening with Muslim fundementalists.
You want a place that is at peace with it's non-muslim neighbours? Freedom mentioned Turkey. There is also Egypt (I think it is the only country in the middle east that has diplomatic relations with Israel).
Most of the countries with problems are not related to religion. Palestinians believe their home has been taken over, Pakistan and India both claim Kashmir belongs to them, etc.
Sorry if it came off as if I am being rude to you, I am just tired.

Hey Freedom,
I don't find that there are so many nations that follow an extremist path. Very few entire nations do at all. It is generally fundamentalist groups within these nations that cause the problems.
About the news piece you linked. Aside from the fact that it has little to do with religion, if you checked up the discussion going on here about it, and if you actually read the article, you would see that she is getting 100 lashes not for sex, but for wrongfully accusing the others of raping her- something that would have resulted in their death. The girls claim of rape did not go unheard, it was investigated. If you read the article, you will see that she filed a case against them out of revenge. She says so herself. Now if you wish to believe otherwise, that is your own prerogative, I am sure you know better than the people involved.
The punishment for adultery is the same for women and men. The Hadith you quoted was an individual case where 1 woman was guilty of illegal sexual behaviour. She was not being punished for being raped.
Freedom, I am sorry to say this, but I am getting tired of debating with you. You will see that I counterpointed every point you put forward, and offered my own information about what I know. I still get the feeling after 3 pages that you are absolutely unwilling to see it any other way than your own. Your mind is set. There can be nothing I can do to change it, so what is the point? I hope you do not look at this as if I am running away. I say it again, I counterpointed every point you put forward.
Peace be with you

Religious differences mean one thing ( intolerable people )
No one is gonna get along when there are different beliefs (I don’t care what anyone says)
Mankind only trusts who is closest to them (paranoid not me just saying the way it is )
Science/Maths is going to prove this in the years to come
And as you said earlier centurion every where Islam is making moves in other religious beliefs
There is strife! I seem to remember a article I read some where of the twenty or so conflicts going on around the globe more then sixty % was attributed to islam
Think about it where ever you live you trust your family first then the people you know then next-door(sometimes anyway) then the people on your road and so on and on until you end at your nation
So to my question
Why believe in something , except yourself !!!

Enough Freedom, please, don't force me to reply by putting words in my mouth.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
I wonder what he did to betray her?

The logical conclusion would be that he went with another girl. I don't know! There are a zillion other scenarios. She used the word "Revenge", not "Justice", so obviously she didn't file the case because he raped her (as he didn't), she wanted to get back at him.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
"Under Iranian law, girls over the age of nine and boys over 16 face the death penalty for crimes such as rape and murder, while capital punishment can be imposed in certain cases of illegal sexual relationships. "

A 10 year-old girl can face the death penalty?!? For Rape?!? How insane is this?

Come on now! You don't really believe yourself do you? Why would somone be punished for being raped. An example was being given. Crimes such as rape and murder.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
You're correct when you say that the Hadith I quoted was an historical reference. But isn't Islam about historical context? Don't you find it barbaric to be giving children "lashes"? I am completely befuddled by this!!

The difference in the way you and I interpret the previous passages posted in this thread is that I take a more literal interpretation while you seem to take a more metaphorical or analytical interpretation. But you can't argue the fact that there are 10's of millions of people who do literally interpret the Qur'an.
[/quran]
I didn't say it was a historical reference, neither did I deny it. I said it was the individual case of a woman guilty of illegal sexual behaviour. That particular occasion does not apply for all cases. Yes, I find it barbaric to give children lashes. It does not support doing this in the Quran. You are once more taking the laws of a certain country, and assuming they apply to all muslims.
I take no metaphorical and analytical interpretation. I quoted exactly each verse, and showed how it contradicted your idea of Islam. When it said "There is no compulsion in religion", it meant exactly what it said. When I quoted where it showed that you must be kind to, and protect (when they ask) non-muslims, that is exactly what it said. I cannot answer for those who distort the Quran, for that is what they do- distort it.

Please, limit your future posts to this ridiculous "ROP update". I am sure you enjoy it. I think I answered all your questions, and there is no further need for me in this thread.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
You haven't answered all my questions. For the most part all you've done muddle-up the answers with responses that evade the particular probem; such as: The 10-year old girl being put to death for crimes "such as rape or murder" which you asserted they were simply providing an example of the type of crime, not rape itself. While avoiding the ultimate question: Why should ANY 10-year old be put to death? What kind of society is it that supports the death penalty for a child?

Originally posted by babloyi
Yes, I find it barbaric to give children lashes. It does not support doing this in the Quran. You are once more taking the laws of a certain country, and assuming they apply to all muslims.

Peace be with you

Originally posted by man_u_can_win
Religious differences mean one thing ( intolerable people )

Not true, I have friends from Satanic to Wiccan to Baptist. I think Athiests and Agnostics have a way of pushing people away because they are threatened by the topic of beliefs.

Originally posted by man_u_can_win
No one is gonna get along when there are different beliefs (I don’t care what anyone says)

Per this thread, babloyi and I have become friends...of course as you said, you've shut your ears to this.

Originally posted by man_u_can_win
Mankind only trusts who is closest to them (paranoid not me just saying the way it is )

So pull up a chair and get comfy.

Originally posted by man_u_can_win
Science/Maths is going to prove this in the years to come

We all use science and math, it proves nothing in the land of people.

Originally posted by man_u_can_win
And as you said earlier centurion every where Islam is making moves in other religious beliefs
There is strife! I seem to remember a article I read some where of the twenty or so conflicts going on around the globe more then sixty % was attributed to islam

Please...the pseudo-stats are making me nauseous. If it's true, site your sources please. Do you know what the violence rate compared with popluation of Islamists and location are? The stat doesn't even make mathmatical sense.

Originally posted by man_u_can_win
Think about it where ever you live you trust your family first then the people you know then next-door(sometimes anyway) then the people on your road and so on and on until you end at your nation

I can't stand how my neighborhood is too afraid to come outside of their doors. I tried to meet them once, most would not answer. My hands were empty and I had no agenda other than to say "Hi, I live over there". Why is this? Paranoia. Get out there and meet everybody you possibly can everywhere. Breathe real air, not just the photons spewing from your monitor. Shake real hands instead hiding behind avatar masks. I'm sure you'll be surprised just how cool people can be in person.

Originally posted by man_u_can_win
So to my question
Why believe in something , except yourself !!!

Because you'll end up with nothing.

[edit on 28-2-2005 by saint4God]

The Wahabis are a group of muslims who attempt to live life EXACTLY as Muhammad did. The problem with this is that the world is not the same as when Muhammad was alive. The Hadith have to be taken and checked how they apply to today. For example, just because Muhammad is said to have enjoyed Camel racing, it doesn't mean that to be a good muslim, one must also enjoy camel racing.
Wahabiism is just one form of extremism. Although in some cases I prefer the Wahabi way. The mosque near my house is Wahabi. Although other mosques sometimes (in fits of religious fervor) start singing religious songs and Quran recitals that stretch far into the night, the Wahabi mosque maintains a stoney silence, allowing me my rest
The "proof" is what I have been providing. The Quran itself.

[edit on 2-3-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
The Wahabis are a group of muslims who attempt to live life EXACTLY as Muhammad did. The problem with this is that the world is not the same as when Muhammad was alive.

But but, shouldn't a follower act as their leader did? I mean, I fall very short but do my best to do and be as Jesus templated. Wouldn't that the best way to get closest to God?

Originally posted by babloyi
The Hadith have to be taken and checked how they apply to today.

I'll take my old Book instead of any daily guide written these days... For me my text is a living word.

Originally posted by babloyi
Wahabiism is just one form of extremism.

Sounds like it's a form of traditionalism if it follows what Muhammad did, yes?

[edit on 2-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
[]

Driver's licenses are a means used to identify the individual. The clothing I'm talking about is the Hajib(sp) which does cover the entire face. I'm not talking about just the head covering. This is an example where their religious laws are being intertwined with our civil laws and it simply won't work on a large scale.

BTW, regarding the Jizya: You call it charity, I call it a tax. The difference between the two is that one is VOLUNTARY (charity) and the other is compulsory (Jizya).

If being a Coptic Christain in Egypt is so great, why have so many (several hundred thousand) left Egypt?

I want to make one point very clear: I am not religious. I am agnostic and as such believe that anything that can be used by people to polarize one from another is generally bad. All religions are guilty of this--as are skinheads, Nazis etc. The problem I have with Islam is that right now the growth of this "extreme" interpretation of the Qur'an (including in Pakistan) is particularily Alarming--especially when there are Imams and Clerics providing official stamps of approval of this interpretation. I am pleased to know, Babloyi, that you seem to have no ill-intent against apostates and infidels, such as myself. This, however, is no consolation as I haven't heard of Christains/Jews/Hindus/Buddhists etc decapitating heads or blowing themselves up, killing innocent women and children, all in the name of their God.

You have never heard of Christians or Jews killing innocent people in the name of their gods? Boy, you need to actually get an education and read some HISTORY. One doesnt need to look very hard to find that, for sheer numbers alone and sheer cultures destroyed, Christians have gone beyond anything jihadists could dream of. History is practically one big story book documenting a neverending chain of Christians murdering people in the name of their gods. lets forget the Crusades, since you seem to think Muslims probably deserve to die anyway.

Christianity spread into Europe nby the sword. Charlemenge was one of the first documented Christian mass murderers, killing some 4500 Saxons who wouldnt convert to Christianity. Many Christian missionaries went throughout Europe, threatening native peoples with death and horrors if they did not convert. During the middle ages, people who practiced old pagan religons, Jews, Muslim, Wichcraft, and scientists were tortured and burned at the stake for their beliefs. Wars and massacres between the Catholics and newly formed protestants caused over 100 years of war on the mainland, and several reigns of terror in the British isles between Catholic and Protestant monarchs. Christian Spaniards came to the New world, brutally slaughtered the natives they same in contact with, enslaving the native peoples and forcing them to convert to Christianity. White Christian settlers hit the high roads of the American plains, killing and converting Indians as was the "white mans burden". Christian Missionaries spread to Africa, the Pacific Islands, and Oceania, and forcibly converted the natives, made them wear clothing, which in the hot tropics, lead to many diseases, and helped destroy their native cultures.

All done in the name of Jesus. Whether it be burning heretics, converting heathens at the end of a sword, or the "white mans burden" Christians have murdered and destroyed more peoples and cultures than islam could ever dream of.

And its all condined in the bible. With such commandments, such as "thou shall not suffer a witch to live" as well as numerous tales of god-commanded Genocide, and smiting and killing idolaters, the bible is more graphic, violent, and bloody than anything Ive ever read in the Koran.

This doesnt mean that Islam is a totally non violent religon. It, like Christianity, springs from the same dangerous "my god is the only one, and anyone whp doesnt agree is gonna burn in hell and is worthless" doctrine that founded Judism (another violent religon).

However, your assetion that Islam period is a violent religon that teaches hatred and is a danger to all secular western democracy is one founded in the ignorance of whoever came up with that lovely Jihadwatch website, which is probably written by some paranoid fundimentalist Christian from the sounds of it. Islam is no more dangerous than Christianity.

If anything, if given the choice, id much rather be stuck in a room for a week with a bunch of Muslims than I would Christians. When I was stationed in Saudi Arabia, i took the opportunity to talk with some Muslims, find out how they felt about the theocracy, what their beliefs were, ect. While a couple tried to convert me, msot Muslims were extremely polite, respectful, and answered my questions honestly and without trying to push some religous crap down my throat. I learned that msot Muslims do not like the mutawwa, the religous police, and do desire some sort of reform. A large number of Muslim women, after the Gulf war, drove around Riyad in protest of being forbidden to drive, and they did it with their veils off. Many men silently supported them, ebcause many men felt that the restrictions on women in the kingdom were too extreme, that the laws were out of ahnd and not truly in accordance with the way islam should be practiced. My experience with Muslims was a pleasant one, and I found they generally were polite, respectful, and even curious as to what my beliefs were (I told them I was Pagan/Wiccan.)

My experience with Christians should have been so nice. But it wasnt. When I told Christians I was Wiccan, theyd start screaming and getting agitated and telling me I worshiped Satan, i was gonna burn in hell, and even tried to touch me, physically restrain me, so they could pray over me. I have been physically threatened by Christians. I have seen Christians slash tires, assault people, destroy property, and make death threats against people who follow Wicca or Paganism. So as far as your statement that Christians dont kill or hurt people in the name of their god, youre quite wrong.

If I were to gauge, on a personal level, the threat I face to my freedom, life, and general well being from Christians and from Muslims, on a scale of 1-10, I rate Muslims as a threat, perhaps, Ill say, 3, since there is the danger of extremist terrorism hitting me. However, Ill give Christians a 9 in terms of threat, as Christians every day try to enforce their beliefs into laws, try and clsoe down or disrupt religous activities of toehr people, deny literature they deem "satanic" from cbeing available in public libraries. Christians threaten not just my physical well being: Christians also try to deny me my freedom and right to chose and live without harrassment.

I would suggest, instead of sitting in your house believing the dubious claims of some site called Jihad Watch with an Obvious agenda, id suggest actually getting out, going to mosques, talking to actual Muslims, stdying the religon from its source instead of contaminated biased "translations". I have, and while I certainly dont believe Islam as a whole is a religon of peace, it certainly isnt the great evil you are portraying it to be. Islamic extremism is a very real threat to peace and stability of the world, but Christian extremism, is alot more dangerous, since its accepted widely in the US, pfracticed by many, and has done more to erode the liberties and freedoms of people than Bin Laden could have ever hoped for.

A Christian is someone who worships God and follows Christ's teachings. Let's then see what Christ had to say about such things. Where is the command for the Crusades? Inquisition? Where does it say to hate anyone? Christ clearly said we have it wrong in killing people. In fact, he said to love God, love your neighbor, AND love your enemy. Funny thing happens when you love your enemy. They no longer are your enemy. I'd be glad to cite examples if people here don't get all up-in-arms about Bible quotes. If you're saying people tend to screw up what's written, then I agree completely.

[edit on 2-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
But but, shouldn't a follower act as their leader did? I mean, I fall very short but do my best to do and be as Jesus templated. Wouldn't that the best way to get closest to God?

You should follow Jesus's behaviour, but not to extremes. For example, if Jesus enjoyed dates, that does not mean that to be a good christian you need to enjoy dates. Just because Jesus never heard of the internet, it does not mean that you should not use the internet. See what I mean?

Originally posted by saint4God
I'll take my old Book instead of any daily guide written these days... For me my text is a living word.

Same with the Quran for Muslims. The Hadith is more like a guide. Most of the Hadith give a situation that the Muhammad was confronted with, and how he dealt with it. When a Muslim is confronted with a similar situation, a similar solution can be used. Just because somewhere deep in the books of Hadith it attributes Muhammad saying "Vinegar is a tasty condiment", this doesn't mean that Muslims should start scarfing down vinegar by the litre.

Originally posted by babloyi
You should follow Jesus's behaviour, but not to extremes. For example, if Jesus enjoyed dates, that does not mean that to be a good christian you need to enjoy dates.

Gotcha. Thought we were talking more about principle here.

Originally posted by babloyi
Just because Jesus never heard of the internet, it does not mean that you should not use the internet. See what I mean?

Hm...Jesus on the net. There's an interesting thought.

Originally posted by saint4God
I'll take my old Book instead of any daily guide written these days... For me my text is a living word.

Same with the Quran for Muslims. The Hadith is more like a guide. Most of the Hadith give a situation that the Muhammad was confronted with, and how he dealt with it. When a Muslim is confronted with a similar situation, a similar solution can be used. Just because somewhere deep in the books of Hadith it attributes Muhammad saying "Vinegar is a tasty condiment", this doesn't mean that Muslims should start scarfing down vinegar by the litre.

Aha. Okay, I hadn't read the Hadith so just going by what I hear here *nods*. What kind of things have you seen these extremists do? Why am I suddenly hungry for boardwalk fries? :-d mmmmmmm.

[edit on 2-3-2005 by saint4God]