The Deep/Dark Web

Evening all,

Me and my mate at work were talking about the deep/dark web (whatever you want to call it) the other day.

Anyway after researching about it out of curiosity I downloaded TOR, the Onion Router and accessed the hidden wiki. From here I browsed a few forums and blogs etc. Its pretty eye opening to see how freely crime and dark dealings occur on this 'hidden internet'.

After looking round for a while I logged off. I just wondered does anyone on here use TOR and access this part of the internet? If so does anyone know whether it is actually legal to access this etc? And does TOR really make you anonymous online?

Cheers

reply to post by KingDoey

does anyone know whether it is actually legal to access this etc? And does TOR really make you anonymous online?

Possible FBI infiltration of TOR

In a crackdown that FBI claims to be about hunting down pedophiles, half of the onion sites in the TOR network has been compromised, including the e-mail counterpart of TOR deep web, TORmail. FreedomWeb, an Irish company known for providing hosting for Tor "hidden services" -- services reached over the Tor anonymized/encrypted network -- has shut down after its owner, Eric Eoin Marques, was arrested over allegations that he had facilitated the spread of child pornography.

Users of Tor hidden services report that their copies of "Tor Browser" (a modified, locked-down version of Firefox that uses Tor by default) were infected with malicious Javascript that de-anonymized them, and speculate that this may have originated with with FBI. Tor Browser formerly came with Javascript disabled by default, but it was switched back on again recently to make the browser more generally useful. Some are predicting an imminent Bitcoin crash precipitated by the shutdown.

FBI Attack on Child Porn Sites May Have Blown Tor Users' Cover

FBI hacks Tor

KingDoey
Evening all,

Me and my mate at work were talking about the deep/dark web (whatever you want to call it) the other day.

Anyway after researching about it out of curiosity I downloaded TOR, the Onion Router and accessed the hidden wiki. From here I browsed a few forums and blogs etc. Its pretty eye opening to see how freely crime and dark dealings occur on this 'hidden internet'.

After looking round for a while I logged off. I just wondered does anyone on here use TOR and access this part of the internet? If so does anyone know whether it is actually legal to access this etc? And does TOR really make you anonymous online?

Cheers

I use it. Of course it is legal.

However, there are many things you can "do" using tor, and if it is illegal in real life, its STILL illegal via tor. That should be common sense

But no, the act of using tor itself isn't illegal.

reply to post by Carreau


Yes I was quite aware that the FBI had infiltrated TOR to smash paedophile rings on the deep net.

Naturally I recognise the illegal parts such as the drugs trade, indecent images of children, contract killings etc are going to attract attention of law enforcement. I have no desire whatsoever to access them.

What I meant was the general access to the hidden web... is that illegal? I.e. viewing the whistleblowing forums and blogs etc..

I realise there are some very sinister parts of it, which I avoid.

Carreau
reply to post by KingDoey

 

does anyone know whether it is actually legal to access this etc? And does TOR really make you anonymous online?

Possible FBI infiltration of TOR

In a crackdown that FBI claims to be about hunting down pedophiles, half of the onion sites in the TOR network has been compromised, including the e-mail counterpart of TOR deep web, TORmail. FreedomWeb, an Irish company known for providing hosting for Tor "hidden services" -- services reached over the Tor anonymized/encrypted network -- has shut down after its owner, Eric Eoin Marques, was arrested over allegations that he had facilitated the spread of child pornography.

Users of Tor hidden services report that their copies of "Tor Browser" (a modified, locked-down version of Firefox that uses Tor by default) were infected with malicious Javascript that de-anonymized them, and speculate that this may have originated with with FBI. Tor Browser formerly came with Javascript disabled by default, but it was switched back on again recently to make the browser more generally useful. Some are predicting an imminent Bitcoin crash precipitated by the shutdown.

FBI Attack on Child Porn Sites May Have Blown Tor Users' Cover

FBI hacks Tor

edit on 28-9-2013 by Carreau because: (no reason given)

Hehe yea, they go after the pedos FIRST.....because most people won't complain about the FBI tracking down and busting pedos even if they use illegal or questionable methods/hacking.

However, the child porn users aren't their main concern. They , department of homeland security, and the dea are REALLY trying to crack down on the exchange of illegal substances.

KingDoey
reply to post by Carreau

 

Yes I was quite aware that the FBI had infiltrated TOR to smash paedophile rings on the deep net.

Naturally I recognise the illegal parts such as the drugs trade, indecent images of children, contract killings etc are going to attract attention of law enforcement. I have no desire whatsoever to access them.

What I meant was the general access to the hidden web... is that illegal? I.e. viewing the whistleblowing forums and blogs etc..

I realise there are some very sinister parts of it, which I avoid.

Nope, like I answered above, that is not illegal.

There is nothing illegal about using firewalls, encyrption, or local area networks (LANs). Tor itself is along the lines of that kind of stuff.

reply to post by KingDoey

Guilt by association is the more likely effect if it was ever going to bite you and you weren't doing anything considered illegal. Think about the NSA justification for wiretapping people 2-3 steps removed from a "suspect".

"KingDoey was accessing underground websites and networks known to be havens for pedophiles, drug traffickers, and contract killers".

How successful will you be at convincing "normal" people you weren't doing anything wrong? Think what it can be like to be known as someone who is "into conspiracy theories" in the eyes of those who've never looked into it themselves.

Doesn't make it right, just reality. It's up to you.

I have no interest standing in the crossfire, though perhaps I'm naive in assuming that there isn't anything going on there that I have any necessary use for that I can't accomplish in the public sphere.

reply to post by KingDoey


I should have been more specific than just given you the links.

However, some Tor hidden services users reportedly complained that their copies of Tor Browser, a modified version of Firefox, had been infected with malicious JavaScript that de-anonymized them by default.

Apparently the attack code configured Freedom Hosting's servers so that they injected a JavaScript exploit in the Web pages delivered to users. That exploit loaded malware that infected users' computers.

It isn't just the kiddie porn pigs that were affected.

reply to post by Carreau


That's fair enough, but tbh if it isn't illegal to access then if my IP is revealed to law enforcement, because I am doing nothing wrong (not looking at indecent images or ordering shooters) then I have nothing to worry about?

reply to post by supermarket2012


I guess you are talking about sites like the silk road etc? I was pretty shocked that it was even possible to purchase class A online!

KingDoey
reply to post by Carreau

 

That's fair enough, but tbh if it isn't illegal to access then if my IP is revealed to law enforcement, because I am doing nothing wrong (not looking at indecent images or ordering shooters) then I have nothing to worry about?

Do you have the ability to defend yourself if you are arrested on suspicion? It doesn't require proof to force you to suddenly find yourself in court proving your innocence... and if you can't afford to defend yourself... you likely go to jail.

Will you stand next to a person robbing a bank and continue your transactions because you aren't doing anything wrong... and hitch a ride with them to the next town... even though you aren't doing anything wrong?

Intimidation via harassing innocent but "related" people is very effective at scaring people off. And sadly I'm helping that agenda via these posts... but we can't pretend like that option isn't there. Should the "switch" be pulled to suddenly need a pile of "evil people" to target with an easily identifiable label that most people have never even heard of, and thus will fear... it's a pretty juicy target.

Look at the list of things that identify people as "potential domestic terrorists" via association.

Again, doesn't make it right... just reality.

reply to post by KingDoey


You asked 2 questions in your OP, is tor legal and is it anonymous. tor itself is legal but many things found on tor are not. Is tor anonymous, no. LE can and will track users and as I tried to show you there is a chance that your computer will get infected with malware from the tor servers.

Knock yourself out. I'm not here to argue, you asked a question I tried to give you a heads up.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


Are you in the USA mate? Because if you are then things are probably different over there...

Here in the UK the CPS will not prosecute you unless they are 100% sure you have COMITTED a crime. If there is any doubt they cannot convict you. Guilty by association would not work in that respect? What about all the journalists etc that access it for research, they cant jail them aswell surely?

Some chap from PC world wrote an article about it aswell, presumably if they pull the plug hes straight on his way to D wing?!

Carreau
reply to post by KingDoey

 

You asked 2 questions in your OP, is tor legal and is it anonymous. tor itself is legal but many things found on tor are not. Is tor anonymous, no. LE can and will track users and as I tried to show you there is a chance that your computer will get infected with malware from the tor servers.

Knock yourself out. I'm not here to argue, you asked a question I tried to give you a heads up.

Roger that, and yes you have answered my questions so thank you very much.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend

reply to post by KingDoey

Understood. I think everyone in here has given you all the information you need to make an educated decision.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


Sorry if that seemed like I was having a dig mate.

Thank you for your input

KingDoey
reply to post by BardingTheBard

 

Sorry if that seemed like I was having a dig mate.

Thank you for your input

Thought nothing of the sort! Best to you in your exploration. /salute

I think this whole "FBI cracks down on TOR!!!!" situation is a bit blown out of proportion. From what I can gather, all that happened was that one of the releases of TOR came with JavaScript enabled by default, which pretty much cripples TOR's ability to keep you anonymous. This "FBI infiltration" really only affected people didn't have even the most basic understanding of how to use TOR.

If you're interested in anonymity, you should know to MANUALLY disable ALL scripts anyway, especially JavaScript. Really, if it's a big deal to you, you should probably have a computer specifically for TOR. You should have a lot of custom settings, only use a specialized encryption system for e-mails, etc. I can't go in to specifics because I never had a real need for such anonymity, so my knowledge doesn't go far beyond glossing over some tutorials.

Even with all of this though, you should still be aware that YOUR ISP CAN SEE WHEN YOU USE TOR. They can't see what you're doing within TOR, but they can see every time you are using it, which I'm sure could flag you to be watched more closely.

Honestly, as interesting as it is, I think it's more of a novelty than anything. Unless you REALLY have a need to be discreet, there's not much there for you. Maybe I just didn't take the time to explore enough, and maybe I'm missing something, but from what I can tell it's really only useful if you're a drug dealer, a pedophile, or you're living in a country where the government strictly regulates internet data (e.g. if you're a Chinese journalist).

I'm fairly certain Tor and the so-called 'Deep Web' have been thoroughly penetrated by intelligence agencies for years now. I fully expect to see it get mentioned more and more in the mainstream media to try and encourage more people to use it for illegal purposes.

(Just last night for example the UK news ran a series of stories about how ridiculously easy it is to buy hard drugs on Tor, even gave out the website name, and how 'risk free' it is to have drugs delivered straight to your door. Now, if that story wasn't a plant by the authorities, I just don't know what is.)

And I think its great for the authorities, encourage criminals to use a means of criminality that records everything they do, everyone they speak to, etc, etc.

KingDoey
reply to post by Carreau

 

That's fair enough, but tbh if it isn't illegal to access then if my IP is revealed to law enforcement, because I am doing nothing wrong (not looking at indecent images or ordering shooters) then I have nothing to worry about?

Not only do you have nothing to worry about if you aren't doing anything wrong..... but the VAST majority of people actually doing illegal stuff are going to get away with it. That guys for child porn , as well. Obviously , just like most sane people, I'm completely against child porn, but coming from a background in computer security, this is one topic I know all too well - and less than 1% of people using TOR for illegal activities will ever face any criminal charges.

As for the FBI grabbing ur IP and information if you use TOR...well....yea, they can, and WILL do so. Even though it is supposed to be anonymous, it isn't...like those links obviously showed. The FBI has ways around it.

most of the people who use TOR, and do illegal stuff, also use encryption though. PGP encryption is very difficult to break, even for the CIA, NSA, and FBI.

Don't forget....the FBI also monitors your internet conneciton and what you browse....that doesn't mean you can get in trouble for coming to ATS.

Just because the FBI is monitoring you, doesn't mean much more than that. Most of it is datamining.