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Originally posted by jiggerj
You call the universe intelligent and conscious. To many this inference means a god. If you want to knit-pick on this, fine. I will edit my words without changing the context.
No, our existence does not prove that the universe is intelligent and conscious. Our existence only proves our existence. Only the universe can prove its intelligence and consciousness by writing "Hi, I am the universe," across our sky.
Originally posted by jiggerj
Just because we can think in no way proves that the universe can think. You take the human animal's best attribute (intelligence) and claim it as proof that the universe is intelligent.
The best attribute of a fish is that it can swim. Is this proof that the universe can swim? The best attribute of a skunk is that it can spray an awful stink. Is this proof that the universe can spray an awful stink?
Our existence proves there's a universe.
Originally posted by jiggerj
Logical? You take ONE attribute from ONE species of animal and offer that as proof of something as grand as a universal consciousness.
The universe produces the human animal with an opposable thumb. Is this proof that the universe has an opposable thumb? The universe produces giraffes with a really long neck. Is this proof that the universe has a really long neck?
I'm not even saying that the universe ISN'T conscious and intelligent. I'm saying that what you offer as evidence for it is totally wrong, humanly self-centered and arrogant.
However, we as humans, are the pinnacle (at least on earth)
Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by PhotonEffect
Pinnacle? Are you serious?
What are we doing that is so good for the earth, for the air, for the space beyond our atmosphere that is loaded with our debris? What are we doing that at the very least doesn't do harm to the environment? How many animals are there that don't pollute? How many animals are there that don't hate?
Hey, I love having the ability to sit here and debate with you, but it doesn't change the fact that we (thinking) humans are total s__t! We are an abomination to nature and everything we touch, and there's no way to debate that.
reply to post by PhotonEffect
Yes, I meant in terms of the context of what we're discussing in that post -consciousness and intelligence, as it relates to living things on earth. What are we doing that is so good for the earth, for the air, for the space beyond our atmosphere that is loaded with our debris? What are we doing that at the very least doesn't do harm to the environment? How many animals are there that don't pollute? How many animals are there that don't hate?
This isn't a debate about good vs evil, or morality.
Originally posted by jiggerj
Right. My intent here is to reduce the high regard we have for our intelligence. We consider this intelligence to be the most supreme attribute, and by this consideration we extend it to the universe. So far, our intelligence has been nothing but a destructive force, yet we want to claim that the universe is full of it. That's a bit scary.
Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by jiggerj
Something new cannot appear without something disappearing. Can change be called destruction?
Originally posted by winofiend
Originally posted by symptomoftheuniverse
There are as many atoms in our bodies as stars in the universe. We are exactly half way,but so is everything else in a infinate universe.
Well that depends on whether you agree the universe is infinite or not.
If it is infinite, then no. There are an infinite number of stars in the universe. Unending. An impossible concept to put into a container and compare to the finite number of atoms in our body.
Perhaps there are as many atoms in our body as there are stars in the visible universe.
But then, what we see is a limit of what we are. Not what is.
Originally posted by jiggerj
Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by jiggerj
Something new cannot appear without something disappearing. Can change be called destruction?
If you go with the adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," then yes, change is destructive. We humans might need to rape the land in order to lay down miles and miles of highway, build museums and universities and hospitals and apartment buildings, but nature sure doesn't need it.
We had food that was all naturally grown. We didn't have to knock down forests to plant seeds for our food. We lived a certain amount of years that was consistent with what nature offered us without putting any work into at all. We don't need to live to be 100 (we WANT TO, but we don't need to).
Long story short, we had it all, and we blew it.
What is appearing presently is always changing. It is strange how the human mind thinks of it as destruction - who can tell what it should be like? The mind will tell you it is wrong - the mind will tell you that 'we have blown it'! How could it know for sure that it is not exactly as it should be?
Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Itisnowagain
What is appearing presently is always changing. It is strange how the human mind thinks of it as destruction - who can tell what it should be like? The mind will tell you it is wrong - the mind will tell you that 'we have blown it'! How could it know for sure that it is not exactly as it should be?
It's quite odd how the perspective on mankind is viewed at such extremes. Some will tell us that a perfect god created such a wonderful creature as man. Others can plainly see how imperfect nature can royally screw up by creating such horrors as two-headed snakes, kittens, and cows, and humans.
A naked ape? What's up with that?
We kill, and then call ourselves a peaceful species. We are the only species to pollute the earth, sea, and sky, and we consider ourselves intelligent - the caretakers of this planet. We grow more and more technologically advanced, yet still have no clue on how to conduct ourselves in intimate relationships, how to treat each other with respect, or how to feed the starving throughout the world.
Mankind - what an abomination to nature!