Spirituality & Becoming What We Aren’t.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
This is actually quite typical of a religious psychology. To avoid something because it's too difficult to rectify. This isn't spirituality, this is fear. I believe what I believe because no one can plead a decent case otherwise.

Are you simply unable to justify your opinions? Did you just wish to tell someone they are wrong without offering any reason why? That's called dogma.

Considering that so many of us have wasted many an hour trying to enlighten you about what we are speaking of... I'd say there's a very good reason to simply let you believe whatever you want.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope


Joy? Pleasure? Happiness? Bodily satisfaction. Self-indulgence.

Pleasure is bodily satisfaction.
Happiness is in between pleasure and joy. It comes with the fulfillment of physical desire, and is very short lived.
Joy is a deeply spiritual experience. It is very very rare to feel joy in the physical world. You cannot be truly joyful because of something, the joy itself is its own cause.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

A truly spiritual person is aware that being re-born from above is to never die, because their essential self and self-identification isn't with the material but the invisible spirit which never dies because it is God.

Spirits do not die because they do not live. Which are you?

The "materialist atheist mindset": you say it like it's an insult. Is there something wrong with existing?

The idea is that there's more to life and living than meets the eye (invisible). Also, there is only one spirit with many manifestations.

"I am the light of life."
~ Jesus, as Spirit.

reply to post by HarryTZ

Considering that so many of us have wasted many an hour trying to enlighten you about what we are speaking of... I'd say there's a very good reason to simply let you believe whatever you want.

Another piece of the religious psychology puzzle. "I am more enlightened than you. I cannot explain why, but allow my dogma to tyrannize over your thoughts. " This is everyone of your posts.

No sorry. The reason you waste your time is because you are unable to produce an effective argument. Not because I'm stubborn. I'm very open minded.

Frankly, you should have walked away a long time ago. If your ego wants to get the last word before you part, by all means.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Okay.
Also, might I add that you very hypocritical for calling me dogmatic. Yours is in the fact that you make claims about topics you have very little knowledge in.

I didn't read the other pages of responses, I felt compelled to write out my own answer instead, as soon as I read the OP- because it sounded so far off what I refer to with the word "spiritual"!

For me, I use that word to describe a tendancy or appreciation of introspection; the habit of being receptive to the internal experiences of the subjective world. It requires a flexibility and open-mindedness that can be an obstacle to being "religious"!

You mentioned in the OP the following of a guru of some sort- I would not, could not, use the word "spiritual" for someone who follows a guru. A spiritual person follows an inner flow and not an external source.

I think that for those who practice this following of an internal flow, and have had experiences which happen to sound similar to others' findings may cause one to assume they all learned the idea from a person, book, or common external source. But that is a misunderstanding and false assumption in many cases.

It does however, enhance the sense that there is some way that our internal subjective worlds touch, and that some religious teachings might be based in some sort of non-physical reality we can all have access to through an inner channel.

Originally posted by Bluesma

You mentioned in the OP the following of a guru of some sort- I would not, could not, use the word "spiritual" for someone who follows a guru. A spiritual person follows an inner flow and not an external source.

A nudge -- or sometimes even a forceful shove -- can and usually is in order. That is why a guru is there. But the guru can only lead you to the light... it is up to you to open the door...

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
"God is spirit and truth."
~ Jesus

And furthermore, within this "re-frame" of God, Jesus told the woman at the well that as spirit and truth God seeks worshipers (communers) who worship in spirit and in truth, nothing more, and that the day will come and has already come when those worshippers will worship neither on the mountain or in the temple (religious observances) but wherever the approach to God is made in spirit and in truth.

Thus, this whole attempt to conflate religion with spirituality is flawed.

What is the spirit? I think it's a spirit of the universe (and of eterna life, as God), which is fully informed, infinitely intelligent and, like the wind that blows where it will and while you can hear it or feel it (know that it's present) you cannot tell from where it comes or wither it goes - is radically free, as are those who are re-born from above and of the spirit.

A truly spiritual person is aware that being re-born from above is to never die, because their essential self and self-identification isn't with the material but the invisible spirit which never dies because it is God. And it has nothing to do with "bodily satisfaction" but the kind of satisfaction that is still available even when the body starts falling apart and which transcends the physical body and thus the material world whereby consciousness, not matter is primary (first/last, Alpha and Omega).

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Nicodemus and Jesus - Reborn
go to 2:24 in the vid - segment runs to 5:35

Note catefully the subtle nuances (intentionally directed) in this exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus surrounding the issue of rebirth.

"What is born of the flesh is flesh but of the spirit, spirit."

When Jesus said "do not marvel when I say that you must be born again" he knew that Nicodemus, by asking "can a man enter his mother's womb a second time?" was aware that Jesus was an illegitimate child, but of course Jesus was speaking of something not visible or physical.

Perhaps this might help the OP or other philosophical materialist atheists to consider and ponder this whole notion of spirit in a new light hey anything's possible..

Best regards,

NAM

edit on 27-5-2013 by NewAgeMan because: edit

A True Man Of Wisdom... Perfect...

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by Bluesma

You mentioned in the OP the following of a guru of some sort- I would not, could not, use the word "spiritual" for someone who follows a guru. A spiritual person follows an inner flow and not an external source.

A nudge -- or sometimes even a forceful shove -- can and usually is in order. That is why a guru is there. But the guru can only lead you to the light... it is up to you to open the door...

If that is your thing. I don't relate to that value. I don't think anyone needs a guru to experience spirituality, and even suspect it can be a obstacle.

reply to post by Bluesma


If you are where you are now, in terms of your spirituality, I can almost guarantee that you've at least read a book or two on the topic.

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by HarryTZ

Originally posted by Bluesma

You mentioned in the OP the following of a guru of some sort- I would not, could not, use the word "spiritual" for someone who follows a guru. A spiritual person follows an inner flow and not an external source.

A nudge -- or sometimes even a forceful shove -- can and usually is in order. That is why a guru is there. But the guru can only lead you to the light... it is up to you to open the door...

If that is your thing. I don't relate to that value. I don't think anyone needs a guru to experience spirituality, and even suspect it can be a obstacle.

People can experience spirituality, but many times a Guru is invaluable. Someone who has spent the last 40 years going within and uncovering the inner realms is an expert in their field.

When teeth hurt, we go to dentists,. Sick, we go to doctors. Car troubles, we go to mechanics. Questions in quantum mechanics, we read physics books written by experts.

It's the whole reason for the existence of Jesus, Buddha, Adi Shankara, Lao Tzu, Etc. Experts who show us the way and remind us that there is something more to life, than what we think, or what we trick ourselves into believing.

I was once at a Philosophy meeting, and Sat next to a Buddhist monk who had been at it for the good part of 40 years. He leaned over and said something to me, and his expanded consciousness, in close proximity to me, lit up the center of my consciousness like a Candle. Something that would have never happened if I remained with the ideal of ME ME ME, all I need is Me and My own experiences of Spirituality.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
reply to post by Bluesma

 

If you are where you are now, in terms of your spirituality, I can almost guarantee that you've at least read a book or two on the topic.

I have sat here contemplating this phrase and just can't figure out what you meant by it-
"If you are where you are now, in terms of your spirituality...."
I would guess everyone is where they are now, in terms of their spirituality, no?

Basically, in my case, I had a pretty isolated childhood, and that state of things continued into adulthood.
But event early on forced me to be introspective and inhibited.
In my late twenties, I began writing out or vocally sharing with others my own particular views and experiences, and would have people say, "hey, but that is just the concept of _____, written about by______", or taught by _____. " So I began looking up pre-existing ideas on spirituality and was surprised to find that they corresponded with my own experiences (which I had thought to be original and odd creations of my imagination before).

Finding corroboration by others after the experience is different from looking for it after being exposed to someone else's description.... and pretty much separates spirituality from religion for me.

Originally posted by dominicus

People can experience spirituality, but many times a Guru is invaluable. Someone who has spent the last 40 years going within and uncovering the inner realms is an expert in their field.

Well, with this logic then, I must be an expert in my field!
I think the key word there is "my".
I can introduce another to my field,
They can even bathe in the warmth of it's light,
Yet is it my field they need to discover,
or their own?????

When teeth hurt, we go to dentists,. Sick, we go to doctors. Car troubles, we go to mechanics. Questions in quantum mechanics, we read physics books written by experts.

That is exactly what separates the physical realm from the spiritual realm.

It's the whole reason for the existence of Jesus, Buddha, Adi Shankara, Lao Tzu, Etc. Experts who show us the way and remind us that there is something more to life, than what we think, or what we trick ourselves into believing.

I bet Jesus, Buddha, Adi Shankara, Lao Tzu, etc. existed for their own reason and to experience their own spirituality.
That we could see them as evidence that there is more to life could be, but I doubt it is their reason for existence.
-And even being aware of them, it is perfectly possible to trick oneself into believing things....gosh, it is even more likely!

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
I'm very open minded.

I have not noticed you being open minded.

Lesmis, I enjoyed reading your opening post, and despite attempting to practice mystic teachings myself, I agree with much of what you have written.

Actually, I think it may be precisely because I am trying to follow a spiritual path that I have come to realize that I have barely a spiritual bone in my body. In the beginning, I liked to regard myself as "spiritual", but as time went on, it became obvious to me that I was merely deluding myself.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
But thinking is the enemy—isn’t that so my friends? Isn’t that what the spiritual ones promote? that our true nature is not to think?

In mystic teachings, the mind is only considered the enemy if the thoughts lead to desires and actions which undermine our wellbeing and our equipoise. Through the practice of meditation and mindfulness, the thoughts are harnessed in such a way that they no longer pose a threat, and the self slowly learns to discipline the mind so that it does not run rampant and disturb the delicate balance on the tightrope of life.

Thoughts are not the enemy - thoughts are of the appearance - thoughts are entertainment.
No thought could appear without the space for them to appear in.
Is it possible for the space to change? Can nothing change?
Is it possible for you to become what you are not or is it more likely that you don't know what you are?

Originally posted by Bluesma
You mentioned in the OP the following of a guru of some sort- I would not, could not, use the word "spiritual" for someone who follows a guru. A spiritual person follows an inner flow and not an external source.

In mysticism, the guru is the guide on the inner journey. There are so many pitfalls along the way, it is difficult and often dangerous to navigate these metaphysical realms on one's own.

But a guru is not for everyone. In my opinion, the guru is there for those who need him/her. If you can manage without a guru, then you do not need one.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


No. I just don't have the energy or desire to bang my head against a brick wall. You're entitled to your opinions, however much I disagree with them, and I have better things to do with my time than try to convince you otherwise.

Peace.

I must say, I think the opening premise is a bit flawed as I will explain.

I do not say that I am religious because I don't subscribe to any one in particular. I have an amalgam of beliefs based on my experience; concepts like the chakras, meditation, hair as a symbol of our own intuition, hermetic laws, and so forth. I describe myself as spiritual because I am in the driver seat of my spiritual lifestyle and progression, not a religious institution that was created to counterfeit personal spirituality.

In my very honest opinion, major religions were created in an attempt to control the way of the world and it's people, contrary to the self-determined experiences and spirituality of the indigenous cultures around the world. Growth and expansion remain stagnant while the ruling powers stop us from connecting with our inner selves which is the highest form of divinity we shall ever find in all of existence.

I do not pray to a god in particular, although I do pray, I recognize the archetypal symbolism of the Gods I accept and that is what I cherish. Apollo - Sun, Light, Love and knowledge of Medicine. As set forth in my personal doctrine, I am my own god, free to do and believe as thou wilt.

As far as the importance of thinking in spirituality and meditation goes, I think very much as an individual. My brain was built with the off switch on my brain only connected to my ability to dream. As a meditator, I do not downplay the importance of intelligent thought and reason. As I meditate, I close my eyes and allow come to mind what may, then I work through the mental equation, further moving to the next one.

To each their own.

reply to post by Bluesma

For me, I use that word to describe a tendancy or appreciation of introspection; the habit of being receptive to the internal experiences of the subjective world. It requires a flexibility and open-mindedness that can be an obstacle to being "religious"!

I think that for those who practice this following of an internal flow, and have had experiences which happen to sound similar to others' findings may cause one to assume they all learned the idea from a person, book, or common external source. But that is a misunderstanding and false assumption in many cases.

if we look back at the etymology of the word spirit, it literally means (or did mean before religion had her way with it) spiritus "breath" or sprirare "breathe"— literally the breath of life. So I think you're right in a sense that it is introspection on the "internal flow" or of life itself. Another interesting point is spiritual seekers will often search through ancient works for wisdom on the spirit, but will skip right over the root and beginnings of the word for whatever reason, perhaps because it is completely opposite of what it means now.

However, (and I'm going to sound cynical here—if anyone fears cynicism then please look away) I'm not sure being 'spiritual' in a modern sense involves an open-mind, but a very closed mind. I say this because very few can operate or persist their dogmas without the very religious based metaphysics (spirit, not as life, but as eternal substances, holy spirit, mystical forces, mystical states of existence), and a desire and yearning for this metaphysics to be realized and true (faith).

There is still a notion of "I'm spiritual, you aren't" that people need not fear. I bet zero people in this thread would consider me spiritual at all, because I don't rely on the "spirit world" for my knowledge and revelations, but as someone life affirming, who affirms this world and not the spirit world, I feel the "I'm spiritual, you aren't" as well. My vanity says so. To rectify this, and since every human is endowed with the "breath of life" and the tools to think about it, we must say everyone is by default spiritual, alive and making their way through life—and spirituality is simply a personal way of life and the pondering of death and the world.