Why do some theists desperately try to claim a lack of faith as religion?

reply to post by Noncompatible


Your body will be dead, sure, but are you just a body?

If yes, please provide proof that there isn't any kind of afterlife. If no, please provide proof that there is.

My point is that you can't prove either, and I'm laughing at the irony that atheists mock others and act superior to those with faith, when they are just as reliant on their faith in their beliefs as anyone else!

reply to post by Beavers


What about some secluded tribe that has never known a concept of an afterlife?

Do they need faith to not know something they have never heard?

reply to post by Wertdagf


yes of course.

you know what the word believe means right?

to believe anything without proof, requires faith.

faitheism

reply to post by Beavers


But they have never known a concept of an afterlife... they haven't even thought of it.

None one told them and the thought has never occurred.

Its not even a rejection of the claim that an afterlife exists... its the embodiment of the null hypothesis.

What a dichotomy! People do things religiously all the time, like brushing their teeth or arranging the clothes in their closet.

I was taught that religion is the way you live your life. Funny how people define religion as the one hour a week spent in a house of worship (not to mention taking out a church bulletin ad promoting their business), likely spending it begging forgiveness for all that they've done outside of the confines of their chosen "cleansing facility".

The funniest part is how they act after said service, cutting each other off trying to get out of the parking lot, jockeying in line at their favorite Sunday breakfast spot and trying to bang each others spouses.

Sheeeiiiit

reply to post by Wertdagf


if they have open mind and say to themselves 'I don't know what happens after I die' then fine.

if they pretend to know what happens, they will require faith to truly believe it.

reply to post by Grimpachi


I think youre missing what Im driving at. Which is ok most usually do (i have a warped disposition as it pertains to views askew).

The issue shouldn't be whether or not something exists or where the burden of proof lies. In all actuality most arguments of this nature are unnecessary and unimportant in what humanity truly represents. We should be more open to the possibility that the existence or nonexistence need be more explored before we can come to any foregone conclusions of what is and what isn't.

Otherwise either side is based in mere speculation on the very answer that humanity has asked itself for a millennium. What would you do if tomorrow they unearthed a purple unicorn? All of a sudden it is no longer magic that only a large percentage of children believe in.

As children we were taught its ok to draw unicorns, as we age we are taught they don't exist. There in lies the contradiction. To simply believe that your existence is nothing more than a evolution of physical being just seems......sad. We have proven that there is a spiritual essence to us all with science. To assume that it has no function would be tragic. If all we are is a physical property of years of conformity, then why do we have such deep rooted emotions that manifest within us in a physical way?

As emotion drives our physical being aside from our environment, where do you draw the line? This is relevant by the way as it has everything to do with the very core of what beliefs are and how we represnt them to others.

My query is this, what makes your belief any more valid than a christians considering that neither side has enough evidence, burden of proof or not.

And even though you may not believe in god, Im sure there is some traditional superstition you do celebrate no matter how small it may seem in your beliefs.

Originally posted by Beavers
reply to post by Noncompatible

 

Your body will be dead, sure, but are you just a body?

If yes, please provide proof that there isn't any kind of afterlife. If no, please provide proof that there is.

My point is that you can't prove either, and I'm laughing at the irony that atheists mock others and act superior to those with faith, when they are just as reliant on their faith in their beliefs as anyone else!

Do you not understand the ridiculousness of your statement ?
Or do you simply not understand my response ?
There is no burden of proof on me. There is no evidence. I do not require belief to know I will die, death is a well documented event and has proved to be 100% terminal (sarcasm yes, mocking no.).
I would require belief to accept an afterlife as there is no evidence for one.

Death: Will happen, observed to happen.
Afterlife: Zero evidence beyond faith and belief.

Or if you prefer: I know I will die, no belief required. Beyond that there is zero evidence for anything, regardless of any individuals faith, belief or religion.
No mocking involved, just simple factual data.

reply to post by Grimpachi

can a person both believe that there is a god, and that there isn't a god? no, it's a contradiction.

can a person believe there isn't a god, but that they don't know? no, also a contradiction.

let me try this with a different word, perhaps the equation will become clearer. murderer's are bad people, but i don't know if murderer's are bad people. do you not see the conflict with believing something is true, then turning around and stating that you don't know it's true?

know 1 [noh]
1. to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: I know the situation fully.

dictionary.reference.com...
the problem with the combined words "agnostic atheist" is that a specific position is held as true, but then held as unknown. un-known "not known"="not perceived as true"

reply to post by grainofsand

'Must' is a very strong assumption, and incorrect. I am aware of the 'big bang' theory of course. It is an interesting theory based on research by others where I have not been personally involved. I neither believe it or disbelieve as I have not carried out primary research and do not have enough knowledge to form a definite opinion myself. Honestly, I don't really care how the universe was formed, it has no relevance to my existence in this time frame I'm living right now. I would personally divert research budgets to more pressing matters in the world such as sustainable energy, sanitation and clean water for all. Regardless of my opinion about the 'big bang' theory, I certainly do not insert an unprovable entity into the discussion to fill the blanks, although I can understand the need some people may feel to do so.

You seem to have a really sweet nature about you.

I appreciate you not being defensive and speaking with me, your thoughts, in a nice manner. I like conversations like this.

I am a "why" type of person. I have to get to the bottom of things... the root cause to questions that I want answered.

The Big Bang (if that happened) would be to me... reasoning if I may... like the splitting of an atom/Adam/ Man/ Insert whomever ya want here. It was a mere thought. Consciousness..

Religion to me is not something I adhere to, however I find myself and always have found myself contemplating that of the root causation of the Universe and everything in it. All of my life, I have questioned everything. I'm not all that trusting and know I should be, however I like to find out for myself what I may question and come up with the answer on my own.

We have information at our finger tips these days and so for this day and age I find myself constantly learning and seeking the invisible. Why? Because I know its there.

Who knows, science has no answers for that, and religion just replaces an honest answer of 'I don't know' with an unprovable entity to explain it all.

What I get irritated with is people who hold their religion above another. I guess Christians for the most part are people I can't ponder with about "God" without an argument coming.

I see an art, a masterpiece being created by a Creator. Is it because I am a Pisces? I don't know.

Getting back to my intents in the OP, all I'm saying is that faith in the published research of others is not the same as faith in an unprovable invisible deity, no matter how much some theists would like it to appear. The research of others can be checked and verified, gods on the other hand can not. I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here but in most aspects of life I will trust science over religion. Put simply, if I have an infection I would prefer antibiotics to a prayer any day.

Sorry.... I question and some questions may have been deemed "off topic".

I can accept the invisible. Science tells me there are hidden dimensions.

Just because you are Atheist and do not believe in a God... do you not believe mind over matter? Saying or asking your body to heal isn't worth getting over an illness or disease?

You may not have faith in a God or Gods... but if you think deep enough do you not think about the Invisible and life after death?
How do Atheists think when they lose a child?

Can you give me an example of what you would "think about" if that were to happen to you?

I'm really wanting to know, because again.. I am inquisitive.

I was away from this thread for awhile and while it has gone in a slightly different direction, I really should address some of the comments and questions directed specifically to me. There have been several. I may be oversimplifying but they seem to be of three types: "How do I know there is a supernatural?" "What evidence do I have for belief in it?" and "How can I believe without any current, recorded miracles?" Notice that there is some overlap.

Is there a supernatural? And why do I think so? I believe so. Perhaps in the same sense that nearly everyone believes there is a natural reality outsides themselves. ATSers know there are people who believe we are simply simulations in a computer program, or in some other way have only the impression that there is something real, and our minds just invent our particular private universe.

We have to make do with the evidence we have. While the vast majority of people believe in a natural world, a vast majority also belive in a supernatural world. If not gods of some sort, then ghosts or similar mysteries. Additionally, many claim to have seen the effects of supernatural forces. Even scientists, when asked about the supernatural, say "We don't do that." By definition, they can't. Is the supernatural world proven? No, but there is evidence of various levels of quality that indicates it does, and no evidence it doesn't. So, without further information, I'll believe.

What evidence is there for the supernatural? I'll skip the long list and just give you a few examples next. But there are at least three types of evidence:

(a) What we know about ourselves. Humanity has spent vast time and intellectual energy searching for, longing for, and describing what the supernatural world is probably like. Cave men, philosophers, religious fanatics of various stripes, artists and poets, meditators, and more have all devoted themselves to the search and study. Why, if it is false, do we do this? Further, why do so many come to believe in it after using all of their reason and abilities? And why do they continue to believe in the face of death and torture? Again, proof? No, but certainly a hint, a clue, a bit of evidence.

(b) For Christians especially, what we know about the Bible (Quoran, if you're a Muslim?). Document analysis, literary criticism, and historical techniques, have convinced the majority of scholars that the Bible we have is nearly exactly what the Apostles wrote, their style of writing had not been invented at that time, it correlates well with other historic events and places, and it is matched by other writings of people close in time to the events. Some of the books were written by people who were probably eyewitnesses.

(c) The efffects of the supernatural. Beides the psychological miracles that took place in the Apostles, there are physical miracles which have been recorded. We know the ones from Jesus' time, of course, but there are others. Out of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of claimed modern miracles the most obvious two are Fatima and Lourdes. Both occurred in the 20th century. Fatima was witnessed by tens of thousands of people, some on the site, and some miles away. No reasonable scientific explanation has been offered.
www.fatima.org...

Lourdes is a special case, a scientific skeptics dream case. The miracles are continuing today, there are x-rays, scientific tests, multiple, independent boards of physicians examining each case, all records are open and on file for any physician to look at, and a strict series of tests are applied. Of the thousands of miracles claimed in the last 150 years, only 67 have survived every test and have been described as completely "scientifically inexplicable." Even after that, the local Bishop can toss out (but not add) any he chooses.
en.wikipedia.org...

If you are one of those who say "Show me a real miracle and I'll believe," what more do you want?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by MamaJ

 

I have experienced many deaths where on several occasions I saw light underneath or above the dying and this was my sign they were exiting the body.

I think this about sums up your mystical experiences. Interesting that such a nonsensical claim, which have no connection to Christianity in particular, is the foundation of your belief.

You know what they say about the house built upon the sand, but when your old and you've spent so much time on a particular belief realizing that it was wasted time is a hard thing to swallow.

edit on 1-4-2013 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

Huh?

I'm not a Christian.

It doesn't sum up the mystical experiences I have experienced. They aren't on a grand scale by any means, but they made an impression.

My belief is nothing you know much about. If you wanna know I will be happy to share with ya in a message though.

reply to post by Noncompatible


no you're just trying to straw man me into an argument over a point I'm not challenging.

I'm talking about an afterlife, not death. What happens AFTER you die. I'm not sure how I can make it clearer.

Either prove there is an afterlife, or prove that there isn't, or stop pretending to know if there is and preaching about it.

Without proof of an after life, your religion requires faith in that belief without evidence.

Without poof of no after life, your atheism requires faith in that belief without evidence.

There is no evidence either way and intelligent people don't pretend to know without evidence, they go and find evidence or they wait and see for themselves.

reply to post by Beavers
While I have no solid evidence, except for the direct interaction with life, of what happens after death. I think it's most probable that you are living the afterlife right now, the term afterlife really only messes it up and should just be called life. Life and death, the two polarities you wouldn't know the one from the other without both, but still you know you are alive but not because you have seen others die, you move around and you have a body, so obviously you are and feel alive.

You experience something like death and birth everyday when you go to sleep and then you wake in the morning like when you were born only know you have body which retains memories instead of waking up with no prior knowledge. We don't know what happens when conscious attention fades but I would imagine it is exactly the same thing as death and waking is the same thing as birth. Thus consciousness is somehow contained in the universe as a whole and not inside the body, but is regulated through the very sensitive instrument we call the body.

I think the reason why science can't find consciousness is because it's already found but misunderstood, we are basically radios receiving frequencies which creates what we now feel. There is no difference of touching something with your body or seeing something, they eye is just a much more sensitive type of touch.

Consciousness expresses itself in different manners, animals have consciousness but not the mental capacity to analyze (most animals) but they experience the universe very directly and perform their actions with perfection, while humans have to go a great big circle to arrive at that point due to self-consciousness. I would argue that plants also have consciousness, like you don't know how you grow your hair or make your heart beat they don't know how they grow their leaves but nonetheless they do it.


There are three "important" questions to consider:
What would it be like to go to sleep and never wake up?
What would it be like to wake up, never having gone to sleep?
Who is asking the questions? or perhaps Who were you before your mother and father conceived you?

I put important in between quotation marks as I don't believe them to be important at all but they are great fun to consider if you are interested in such line of thinking.

How is it not a religion, at least for you? You're trying to convert everyone here. You even quote from a book to prove your non-god is better than another's god. Not all atheists are like that but an obnoxious minority does exist.

Originally posted by rbm7448
What a dichotomy! People do things religiously all the time, like brushing their teeth or arranging the clothes in their closet.

I was taught that religion is the way you live your life. Funny how people define religion as the one hour a week spent in a house of worship (not to mention taking out a church bulletin ad promoting their business), likely spending it begging forgiveness for all that they've done outside of the confines of their chosen "cleansing facility".

Thats one meaning of the term, but only as an adverb (doing something religiously), but religion itself is defined as a belief in supernatural power or powers (eg. gods etc). I suppose what your saying is that people who only go to church once a week and never really think about it aren't truly "religious", but if they believe in some sort of god, then they are, as a matter of fact, part of a religion.

Originally posted by rbm7448
The funniest part is how they act after said service, cutting each other off trying to get out of the parking lot, jockeying in line at their favorite Sunday breakfast spot and trying to bang each others spouses.

That would be hilarious. Never seen it myself, but I would like to.

Originally posted by NeverForget
Just to put atheism (lack of a belief) in better terms, for Theists to understand:-

"Atheism Is a Religion Like Abstinence Is a Sex Position"

edit on 1/4/2013 by NeverForget because: (no reason given)

Nice analogy. Although if anybody truly believes that atheism is a religion, they would also believe that abstinence is a sex position.

Originally posted by grainofsand
I live in the UK where The Church of England is established legally with the state.
It's bishops have voting rights in the upper house of parliament which can influence legislation in my country. The Anglican churches in Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland are not established but it's citizens legislation can be influenced by votes from the Church of England.

In my opinion organized religion can be a problem. Even a big problem. And church should always be seperate from state etc. Religious should obviously be allowed to vote, and take part in politics etc. But the church as a whole should stay out of such things, they shouldn't be given more power than any individual.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by grainofsand

 

Thread title:

Why do some theists desperately try to claim a lack of faith as religion?

I'm assuming that you mean lack of faith in God. The answer is simple. You have to have faith that there is no God in order to be an atheist. The existence of God can't be proven or not. Regardless of which side of the fence you land you have to have a certain amount of faith to have landed there. This initial step, in this case not believing in a god, then has natural effects on your answer to the biggest questions in life; which is the function of all religion.

While I agree that you need faith in order to be atheist (not necessarily for an agnostic [including agnostic atheist]), that doesn't mean atheism is a religion. If you don't believe in any particular god, then how can you be a part of a religion?

Originally posted by octotom
reply to [url= by grainofsand[/url]

 

Thread title:

Why do some theists desperately try to claim a lack of faith as religion?

I'm assuming that you mean lack of faith in God. The answer is simple. You have to have faith that there is no God in order to be an atheist. The existence of God can't be proven or not. Regardless of which side of the fence you land you have to have a certain amount of faith to have landed there. This initial step, in this case not believing in a god, then has natural effects on your answer to the biggest questions in life; which is the function of all religion.

Do you have faith there is no Santa? Leprechauns? Unicorns? (actually scratch that one..) Mermaids?

Such pish, Atheism is the rejection of the claims made by theists, no more no less. If the case for god was in a court of law it would be found not guilty due to lack of evidence.

And if it's fair for someone to say 'I know there's no Santa', why isn't it fair to say 'I know there's no God'?

When are we going to grow up and discard these archaic shackles?

Thanks for all the interesting replies, due to time constraints though I can only respond to particular questions or quotes which involve my posts at the moment.

Originally posted by MamaJ
Just because you are Atheist and do not believe in a God... do you not believe mind over matter? Saying or asking your body to heal isn't worth getting over an illness or disease?

Apart from recorded placebo effects, I am personally unaware of any conclusive evidence that mind over matter, or prayers, have any noticable influence over ailments.
If I am ill myself however, I always keep a strong positive confidence that my body will heal itself, with or without the help of medication. It is based on knowledge that I am generally fit and healthy, plus a belief that my own antibodies are up to the job due to good nutrition.

You may not have faith in a God or Gods... but if you think deep enough do you not think about the Invisible and life after death?
How do Atheists think when they lose a child?

Can you give me an example of what you would "think about" if that were to happen to you?

I'm really wanting to know, because again.. I am inquisitive.

Interesting question, I have one child, my son, and I hope I die before him and never face that reality.
I lost my father a few years ago though, and holding his hand at the point of death was final goodbye for me.
With no belief in gods or an afterlife/heaven whatever, he lives on in my memories alone, with the lessons he taught me in life. I do not think he is 'looking down from above', although I have obviously pondered this then reminded myself that there is absolutely no evidence to show that he lives on in any conscious way. As such I celebrate the memory of his life instead of an imagined afterlife.
Of course, if it were the case that when I die we meet up together again in some sparkly afterlife then that would be an absolute bonus Imagining him there waiting for me while I live the life I know now does not help me personally in any way though.

Originally posted by Def Youth
How is it not a religion, at least for you?

No belief in a deity/spiritual teachings = no religion

You're trying to convert everyone here.

No conversion attempts from me in this thread, perhaps you are confused? Feel free to quote some specific reply from me to support your rather silly claim though.

You even quote from a book to prove your non-god is better than another's god.

Again, perhaps you are confused? My quotes were to show the different accepted definitions of the word 'faith' - which bit of that do you not understand? This 'non-god better than anothers god' accusation also appears to be in your mind alone. Please feel free to quote me, but you are the only person to use the term 'better'

Not all atheists are like that but an obnoxious minority does exist.

As there is an obnoxious minority in all walks of life, theists and atheists alike.

reply to post by MamaJ

You may not have faith in a God or Gods... but if you think deep enough do you not think about the Invisible and life after death?
How do Atheists think when they lose a child?

Can you give me an example of what you would "think about" if that were to happen to you?

I'm really wanting to know, because again.. I am inquisitive.

I think this is an interesting and important question MamaJ

I can't speak for everyone (of course). In a way, I can't even speak for myself - because the human mind is a fascinating thing. It goes where it wants... On those occasions when I might beat a retreat into agnosticism - it happens because I have an imagination - it happens with a wish and a prayer :-)

But no matter where or how my mind wanders, I've come to accept (not believe) that after - there is nothing

We're all alone

Except that we have each other - now

I know some people think this sounds a little sad

:-)

It's really not

How does our life right here, right now change with an after? How does it change without one?