to all "modern" skeptics here: some important points to be remembered & considered

As I have said in my other thread, I consider myself to be a skeptic, but rather than being close-minded to all things, I've chose to be an open-minded one, considering many factors, theories, & possibilities, always trying to learn something new.
With all due respect, to all "modern" skeptical/scientific people here in ATS forum who kept saying some rather, in my opinion, 'simple' statements (or, judgements) about "the Mayans don't know anything, and our modern knowledge is 100% much much better than them!"
have you at least ever be open-minded to, again at least, consider of how the Mayan's civilization's knowledge of astronomy was far more advanced back then, even -surprisingly- much more than our "modern" Western or European astronomy today?

Here are some articles about it that at least you can perhaps consider again:

The Maya are well known for their precise calendar and astronomy. The four surviving written documents (which are called the Dresden, Madrid, Paris, and Grolier Codices) that they have left behind include an ephemeris that charts the heliacal risings and settings in the synodic cycle of the planet Venus and an eclipse warning table based on observable lunar and solar cycles. The astronomic complexes in important Maya cities, are called "E Groups", after the E group in Uaxactú Structure E-VII, "Temple of the Masks", north viewUaxactún, in Petén, Guatemala. One of the most notable series of buildings at the site is that E Group in Uaxactún, the 3 small temples, E1, E2, E3, mark the solstices and equinoxes and the stela is the observation marke, from the Masks templeformed by Structures E-1, E-2, and E-3, which are aligned north-south and form an astronomical observatory, the first found in the Maya world. From a observation point on a nearby pyramid, named Temple of the Masks or structure E-sub VII, the early Maya could watch the sun rise behind these buildings and mark the summer and winter solstices (the longest and shortest days of the year) as well as the vernal and autumnal equinoxes (when day and night are of equal length).

www.authenticmaya.com...

and then this one:

While the best minds in Europe thought the world was 5000 years old, the Maya were writing accurate descriptions of celestial events that happened nearly 500 million years in the past. They wrote about cycles in the heavens that are longer than the known age of the universe. We don't know how accurate they were. All of these calculations were done by hand, based on observations made without telescope, sextant, protractor, compass, or any other known instrument. The idea that the Maya, essentially a stone age tribe, could produce calculations of such extreme accuracy that Europe could not duplicate them for thousands of years would seem totally incredible were it not so well documented. The Maya astronomical accomplishments are clearly recorded on paper in the Dresden Codex in Germany.

www.atitlan.net...

Even wikipedia also stated this in their article about Maya civilization & their Astronomy:

Uniquely, there is some evidence to suggest the Maya appear to be the only pre-telescopic civilization to demonstrate knowledge of the Orion Nebula as being fuzzy, i.e. not a stellar pin-point. The information which supports this theory comes from a folk tale that deals with the Orion constellation's area of the sky. Their traditional hearths include in their middle a smudge of glowing fire that corresponds with the Orion Nebula. This is a significant clue to support the idea that the Maya detected a diffuse area of the sky contrary to the pin points of stars before the telescope was invented.[28] Many preclassic sites are oriented with the Pleiades and Eta Draconis, as seen in La Blanca, Ujuxte, Monte Alto, and Takalik Abaj.

en.wikipedia.org...

that's only the "ancient" Mayans knowledge,
and I haven't even ventured more into many other "ancient" civilizations, for example, like the Chinese & their even very practical & proven field of Acupuncture , that even today's "Western/European" medical & science field still haven't been able to fully fathom/understand, yet have acknowledged & accepted Acupuncture & thus their so-called "ancient" knowledge.

The point is: just because it's "ancient", doesn't mean that it's foolish, nonsense, or BS.
Even for a skeptic person like me as well, I have honestly observed some aspects of our so-called "modern" science & civilization to be, for lack of better words: lacking.
We don't have any reason to be 100% prideful arrogant, upon those "ancient" civilization, we (and even our increasingly "materialistic" way of life) are not necessarily the 100% correct, and most knowledgeable one, that's for sure.

-regards from Indonesia-

reply to post by dinkot

The point is: just because it's "ancient", doesn't mean that it's foolish, nonsense, or BS.

Yes, the Maya were very careful observers of the sky. I don't think anyone denies that. You seem to be creating a false dichotomy by claiming otherwise.

the Mayan's civilization's knowledge of astronomy was far more advanced back then, even -surprisingly- much more than our "modern" Western or European astronomy today?

But no, their astronomy was not more advanced than modern astronomy.

I was digging in a dumpster not long ago and I found a calendar and it was still new in the wrap. It was a "collectible" one (Lord of the Rings). On the back it listed the year and the months in a grid and I noticed it ended on Dec. 31st...

guess what that means?

Absolutely nothing.

Originally posted by intrptr
I was digging in a dumpster not long ago and I found a calendar and it was still new in the wrap. It was a "collectible" one (Lord of the Rings). On the back it listed the year and the months in a grid and I noticed it ended on Dec. 31st...

guess what that means?

Absolutely nothing.

Are you sure? Maybe it's an omen that the Hobbit will fail at the box office? O.o

Talk about the end of the world..

reply to post by winofiend

Maybe it's an omen that the Hobbit will fail at the box office? O.o

Not likely. I read the books before most people on here were alive. Eagerly awaited all the movie versions that came out over the decades. The latest was the best. If they follow suit with the new Hobbit, everyone is in for a ride.

reply to post by dinkot


Are you so skeptical that you would doubt modern astronomy in favour of astronomical observations from a people without telescopes, and who couldn't predict the coming of the Spanish, let alone the exact day the earth would end?

I just want to know where the jump comes in that the world will end on this date? The Maya never made such a claim or prediction.

Not likely. I read the books before most people on here were alive.

Everyone here was alive when you read the books.

Just because they were not incarnated in a temporary flesh vehicle, doesn't mean they weren't alive. Somewhere.

Life is eternal, and has no opposite.

Death is the opposite of birth, not life. Life goes on after death (of the body), and it has always been going on before birth (of the body).

Everyone who haven't yet been incarnated (again) into a temporary flesh tool, but are bound to soon, is still alive, waiting for the next incarnation.

There are more wonders in the Universe than I can know, but what I do know is that there are things that the esoterics and mystics of this planet have called Astral Plane for some time now. Why would you assume that just because someone exists in the Astral Plane, that they wouldn't be alive?

I think what you really mean to say is that many here hadn't yet been incarnated into a physical body (again). I mean, of course they HAVE been incarnated into physical bodies before, just not into THE physical body they are using right now. Everyone spends some time in the Astral Plane before they incarnate again - it's an extremely pleasant place and plane of existence compared to this, mundane and gray prisonlike life.

But this might not he the proper area to elaborate on that. I simply wanted to correct your wrong assumption that anyone who doesn't live in a physical body is somehow not 'alive' (How could that logically even be? As we all know, life has no opposite. So what would they be if not 'alive'? No human can ever be 'dead', only the body can. So there's not even a word for what you are describing (and for a good reason)!)

To reiterate: everyone was alive when you read those books. And everyone will always be alive, because energy never disappears or gets destroyed - it only changes shape (or vibration frequency, or plane of existence, etc.). And every single soul is energy.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by dinkot

 

The point is: just because it's "ancient", doesn't mean that it's foolish, nonsense, or BS.

Yes, the Maya were very careful observers of the sky. I don't think anyone denies that. You seem to be creating a false dichotomy by claiming otherwise.

the Mayan's civilization's knowledge of astronomy was far more advanced back then, even -surprisingly- much more than our "modern" Western or European astronomy today?

But no, their astronomy was not more advanced than modern astronomy.

edit on 12/19/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

I believe that what he is getting at is if the human race now did not have the equipment that we now have the Mayans would still be far advanced then we would be. I would love to see one of our astronomers these days spend their lives like the Mayans did just looking up at the stars with their naked eye and tell you what is going on like the Mayans did. I am sure they could not do that as well as the Mayans did.

reply to post by AuntC

I believe that what he is getting at is if the human race now did not have the equipment that we now have the Mayans would still be far advanced then we would be.

I believe he was getting at what he actually said.

I am sure they could not do that as well as the Mayans did.

Why? What is it you think the Maya did? Do you think they have been the only civilization which could observe the movements of the sky?

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by winofiend

 

Maybe it's an omen that the Hobbit will fail at the box office? O.o

Not likely. I read the books before most people on here were alive. Eagerly awaited all the movie versions that came out over the decades. The latest was the best. If they follow suit with the new Hobbit, everyone is in for a ride.

Now this is a prophecy I can get behind.

To play devils advocate, I get that maybe they had a perspective or two that we lack. One is the clarity of the skies back then. Minus city lights and air pollution I can see how their viewing would be slightly improved over ours. I don't mean over telescopes that see afar, just nightly viewing of the sky.

Maybe I can get behind their having enormous time on their hands to sit and watch the heavens. Especially the elite whose work load is lightened by all the serfs that live beneath them on the forest floor. Double especially since they are not busy doing other things like driving Ferraris or playing golf. I am sure they formed societies and think tanks high up on the pyramids and "observatories" to ponder the meaning of celestial movement.

The last thought has to do with "out of body" experiences. Look at the Nazca Lines. Its thought by (some) that the forms of some of the figures on the desert are only visible from above. Why would they make drawings that nobody could see from the ground?

If in fact they practiced some sort of ritualistic spirit travel, why would that be confined to just the atmosphere? Why not to other planets and even... stars?

Just observing...

All of these calculations were done by hand, based on observations made without telescope, sextant, protractor, compass, or any other known instrument

First of all, how do they know what they did or did not use? Were they there, observing? I don't think so.

It's stupid to say that it was made without a telescope, if you can't be 100% sure of what technology they had or didn't have. And how or why would these modern morons have any true knowledge about the ancient Mayan tech?

These guys seem stupidly convinced of their 'modern dogma'-based theories, because they keep insisting that the Mayans absolutely didn't have a telescope (or few). As if it was 100% undisputable fact (which it obviously can't be, unless they have a time machine and have visited that era). It's stupid to be convinced of something that basically must remain uncertain (for the convinced).

Uniquely, there is some evidence to suggest the Maya appear to the only pre-telescopic civilization

And here we go again. Sigh. The shallowness, materialistic minds and sheer inability to grasp that there was something way more advanced on this planet before these modern half-animals, astounds me.

This is a significant clue to support the idea that the Maya detected a diffuse area of the sky contrary to the pin points of stars before the telescope was invented

Before the telescope was RE-invented.

Anyone who knows anything about Atlantis tech, can already point out that there was space travel, E.T. visitors, mental and spiritual powers beyond most modern Earth-people's imagination, flying vehicles and all kinds of higher systems way before the telescope was reinvented. Surely they had superior telescopes as well, or at least it shouldn't be that difficult to accept them having them.

And yet these bozos keep insisting, as someone who knows for sure - although they most likely don't, and aren't very likely to truly know what was going on there and what technology existed and when.

According to my knowledge, there has been at least two eras of real civilizations before this chaotic barbaric madness of a 'society' or whatever it should be called. I am not sure the word 'civilization' applies to anything that happened after 3000 BC on this planet (except the short visits of some cosmic messengers - they were quite civilized).

If what I know is true, there was a huge war about 30 000 years ago that devastated one civilization pretty thoroughly. Indian Veda-books talk about this war as well, but that's not my source.

Atlantis+Lemuria-era followed, and that might include the Mayan and Egyptian Golden Eras - at least the latter is very likely. From the bits and pieces I have collected, it seems that the Ark of the Covenant did exist, but was destroyed because the 'Ancients' (the closer-to-divine priests and other higher beings) saw what was coming, and didn't want to leave such a tremendous power in the hands of ape-like half-animals, who are more interested in selfish lust and greed, getting drunk and having orgies than spiritual cultivation and harmonious development of humanity.

As long as the 'Ancients' were around, amazing technology was a given norm. They had 'crystal power' in the Atlantis and early Egyptian era, and very cultivated and sophisticated spiritual techniques, for initiations and other purifications and 'elevations' from the animal-like consciousness towards the more divine kind. In my opinion, the pictured humans with animal heads, the height differences (giants), etc. are actually just honest depictions of reality. There really were people who looked like that, it's not just symbolic!

We must remember that when all this 'amazing' stuff was happening, the Earth wasn't as "materialistic" as it is now. I mean, the vibration frequency was higher, and Earth was more 'loose' in structure. It wasn't as dense and heavy as it is now. As a result, it was closer to the etheric plane, which made all kinds of 'miraculous' things more probably and possible.

I don't think we could have flying dragons in the modern world, because of this density (among other things), but back then, it was very much possible.

This explains why many of the legends and tales seem so 'fantastic' and 'nonsensical' to the modern mind. But also the closing of the spiritual abilities that started at the same time as the modern people started developing intellectual abilities helps this attitude a great deal.

I mean, no one who has experienced something can really ever deny the thing they experienced.

Anyway, my point is - way before this chaotic mess that people call 'civilization' for a reason that I can't understand, there were DEFINITELY telescopes in existence, among other, much more wonderous things. It can't be proven one way or another, but there is no reason to blindly believe one way or the other either - not even the 'no ancient race could have been as cool as us!'-mantra.

Skeptics rarely deny THAT

Originally posted by Shoujikina


It can't be proven one way or another, but there is no reason to blindly believe one way or the other either

But that seems to be exactly what you are doing here.