Was America ever really Great?

reply to post by DrumsRfun


The constitution hasn't been followed since shortly after the country was formed.

reply to post by tinhattribunal




You lose.

Edit - That was a reply to 'alldaylong' I was tricked into replying to the wrong person. I know it wasn't something the British would ever do.

Originally posted by cavalryscout
reply to post by tinhattribunal

 

You lose.

Edit - That was a reply to 'alldaylong' I was tricked into replying to the wrong person. I know it wasn't something the British would ever do.

edit on 29-11-2012 by cavalryscout because: (no reason given)

Sorry you have to try harder than that :

www.topgear.com...

Originally posted by DocHolidaze

but i will tell you op, to use slavery against America is bullshnip. slavery has been around forever, we didnt invent it. we did trade it in for a another form of slavery that people of all colors now get experience.

I don't think you understand my thread. I never said we invented it, and I'm not using it against anyone or thing, just using it in the context that people think this country used to be great and bringing up points as to why it used to not be great. You may not like it but it's the truth.

haven't women been treated like trash since day one, and still are to this day in some areas? it seems we treat our women pretty good now compared to how the world in general treated them through out our world history. so why bring up old stuff? and blame it on america.

I'm not blaming anything on America? And i'm bringing up this because people on ATS seem to have this idea that America used to be great and I'm sitting here dumbfounded by that. Did you even read what I wrote or did you just read the title and get offended?

I think that you should take a step back and not look at one nation at its follys, but look at humanity as a whole.

Maybe I will in another thread, but this thread isn't about humanity, it's about America's founding and history.

America is a relatively new nation. Of "great" nations in the world that formed in the last 200 years or so, America is the greatest. The interesting thing about America is that it has been for most of its existence, a "melting pot" of nationalities. However imperfectly the melting and mingling has been, the simple fact of the increasingly successful attempt to forge one nationality out of many is a great achievement. I don't think it is an unprecedented achievement, but it is a great one.

What Japan has been to technology, America has been to people. That's nothing to sneer at.

America's problems come from problems with the fundamental myths of American life, the notion that anyone can climb to the top, unlimited "growth", etc. But that's another discussion.

Originally posted by cavalryscout
The USA is and always has been the greatest country on Earth.

To those who think otherwise you can kiss my ass.

I come from a VERY military family, from WW2 up to TODAY. That being said, judging from your name, you're probably present military or ex. Anyway, there's no way in hell your statement is true because firstly, this country isn't even a teen in the grand scheme of the ages of countries. This is a very young EMPIRE, champ. How the hell can it have ALWAYS been the greatest country on Earth? The Romans thought the same sh!+, and they ran things for a helluva long time, way longer than this country will, and look what happened to them. Our government is based on The Roman Empire, from the Senate on down. Take a look at the federal court architecture, hell, take a look at all of the federal architecture, the columns, everything. The Roman Empire was the blueprint for America, regardless of all that glorious ''forefather'' and rah rah sh!+. Being able to blow the hell out of anybody doesn't make you great. I think the Native Americans would have a different view than yours, but oh well, who the hell are they, right? And do you honestly think with all the corruption and f^@ked up economics make the USA the greatest today? Indoctrination is a helluva thing, and your post proves it. When the government of ''the greatest country on Earth'' takes off the gloves and start to put their jackboots up the asses of the American people, including you, we'll see who'll be doing the ass kissing. That is, unless you're one of those gung-ho motherf^@kers wearing the jackboots. I don't wish any harm against our country, I was born here, I'm for the PEOPLE of this country and not the silly ass government sending our people to die for Imperialism. That rah rah ''kiss my ass'' sh!+ will not last forever. Some people don't learn anything from history. What's so great right now, the ability to kick anybody's ass, and set up shop in their nation? That won't last forever, because it's just like being a schoolyard bully...one day, all the other kids are going to say ''maybe we can't kick his ass individually, but combined, we can crush this guy's nuts''. I for one don't want the people of our country annihalated because of some coward assed, chickenhawk politicians, pretending to give a damn about the PEOPLE.

reply to post by poloblack


The US Government is not based on The Roman Empire. It is based upon the English form of government:-

www.proconservative.net...

Originally posted by alldaylong
reply to post by poloblack

 

The US Government is not based on The Roman Empire. It is based upon the English form of government:-

www.proconservative.net...

MMMkay. That's what you think. That's just the surface pal. You'd better dig a little deeper than that. America has a Senate, Rome had a Senate, and England has a Parliament, and as I stated before, that's just the surface. I'm not referring to The Constitutional model, I'm referring to the governmental hierarchy. I'm no history expert, but I am a history buff, and there's no denying the governmental similarities between The Roman Empire and The U.S.A.. As I said in my first post, check the architecture. I've been to Italy, and I've been to D.C.. The similiarities are uncanny.

I think poloblack and alldaylong both have aspects of the truth.

America is unlike the Roman Republic in many ways although the cosmetics of authority derive from Roman models, the building designs, etc. I think though, that America is evolving into a republic which is more and more like the Roman Republic in the sense that it is being run in more of a "top down" manner, like the Roman Republic.

Alexis de Toqueville, the famous early observer of the young American republic said something which is extremely interesting and prescient.

ksrcosta.wordpress.com...

“Hence it is that all peoples who have had to make great wars have been led almost despite themselves to increase the strength of the government… A long war almost always places nations in this sad alternative: that their defeat delivers them to destruction and their triumph to despotism.” [16]

reply to post by Uniceft17

Did you even read what I wrote or did you just read the title and get offended?

obviously i read your post, i addressed many of your points and also agreed with you about America not being the greatest, i stated in my reply that America has gone down hill since the English and Spanish started to arrive, it seems that you just wanna paraphrase and try and argue certain points taken out of context. the whole point being is America is just an upstart from across the ocean and all your points why America sucks can be traced back to its forefathers, another point of mine was, that if you look at it, yeah we did some bad things, but those bad things have been addressed and have tried to move forward, but in doing so has enslaved us even more, the american people are so naive that they believe these new rights are for them. the new rights are a blinder to make us look like America is free, we all bow to the banks, and are slaves.no matter what color or gender we are. i wish humanity as a whole would wake up and see whats happening so we can truly be free and not just as free as the government and the banks allow us.

Originally posted by Trustfund
Nope. The US has treated minorities, women, and poor people like trash for most of its history. The constitution was also violated shortly after it was ratified as well.

The bankers had control of this country as soon as it was formed. Thanks to our largely corrupt founding fathers.

The Whiskey Rebellion, or Whiskey Insurrection, was a tax protest in the United States beginning in 1791, during the presidency of George Washington. Farmers who used their leftover grain and corn in the form of whiskey as a medium of exchange were forced to pay a new tax. The tax was a part of treasury secretary Alexander Hamilton's program to increase central government power, in particular to fund his policy of assuming the war debt of those states which had failed to pay. The farmers who resisted, many war veterans, were fighting for the principles of the American Revolution, in particular against taxation without local representation.

en.wikipedia.org...

There was absolutely NO time of greatness in the USA. It's always been about exploitation.

edit on 29-11-2012 by Trustfund because: (no reason given)

You always have insightful posts, Trust. I concur sir. The ''founding fathers'' were only ''fatherly'' to a priveliged few. Awesome bro.

reply to post by Uniceft17


It really depends what your definition of great is when it pertains to a country.

OP what is your idea of a great nation and why does the USA not fall into your idea of greatness.

Quite Honestly I would like to know why any of you think the USA is/was/coulbe a great nation.

if you do not think it is great ...WHY is that?

I know many people who think this country is great and others (mainly those born here) who disagree.

Originally posted by votan
reply to post by Uniceft17

 

It really depends what your definition of great is when it pertains to a country.

OP what is your idea of a great nation and why does the USA not fall into your idea of greatness.

Quite Honestly I would like to know why any of you think the USA is/was/coulbe a great nation.

if you do not think it is great ...WHY is that?

I know many people who think this country is great and others (mainly those born here) who disagree.

edit on 29-11-2012 by votan because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-11-2012 by votan because: (no reason given)

Maybe I can partly answer your question. Take for instance, Indian nationals, you know, Bangladesh, etc.. Those people have a caste system that's still in existance to this day. They can come to America, get little to no interest loans to purchase convenience stores and motels, buy up real estate and live better than people who were BORN and RAISED here. This is not hearsay, it's FACT. A friend of mine and his wife manage a major motel chain, starts with an H and ends with a J. These people are not even U.S. citizens and they own million dollar homes, and drive better vehicles than MOST American citizens, and they don't even have driver's licenses. This isn't something I've heard, I see it firsthand daily. And they have illegal gambling machines, as to which the local authorities turn a blind eye to, because these Indian Nationals contribute MAJOR payola to sheriff's campaigns, as well as politician's campaigns. Yesterday, we saw this guy named Ashok, and the Mexican workers finishing his 7500 sq. ft. house, which should be finished before Christmas, and this guy has about 15 convenience stores, as well as 2 or 3 ''construction'' companies. Hell yeah, they think the U.S.A. is heaven. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

I am 44 years old, I was born poor and I am still poor. I have been passed over for promotions for friends or relatives of my bosses, laid off to save my former boss' nephew's position despite having 5 more years seniority. In my current job I started the same day as my building manager's son who was fresh out of High School. 5 years later he is now production manager and I am still in my same position. I do not think this country is "great", I have never thought this country was "great" and I seriously doubt I ever will.

I have said before, if I could afford to move I would do so in a heartbeat, but the ironic thing is, should I ever acquire that much money, the country would treat me a whole lot better and my opinion would probably then change.

reply to post by Uniceft17
[True things sucked in every decade,but I can tell you that the 70's were a hell of a lot better than the ensuing decades.Most things just get worse with time.The things that do get better are not worth the bad that comes with the package.If someone suggests that we go to the policies of a bygone era,the naysayers immediately bring up the bad things,when there were actually a whole lot more of the good things.What was good?There were less people.We did not pay for water,well we made fun of those that did and called them idiots.There was a lot less permits to do anything,you just did things for free and no one stopped you.The neighbor could paint himself green on Halloween and run around naked,and there would be no charges,even though he exposed himself to all the children and wives.Racism was on a downward spiral,that is until the P.C. movement sprang from the colleges.Black people were cool,and they actually played musical instruments besides singing.You had to be a drooling idiot to not have a job.I don't want to talk about it anymore.I am getting depressed.Take me back in time,this place sucks!more]

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


China lends out more money to countries than America.
But I don't believe it is hard to lend out money when it's printed so I wouldn't use that a a measure of greatness.

I'm not American, but I believe America has lead the world in technology for a long time. But what do you term America?

The people of America or the gov?

America in general has lots of good and bads. And the measure of greatness should be what way the see saw lands.
Does the good weight out the bad?

There are many great things we can be thankful for from American culture. But not through America as a whole. Through groups and individuals. I wouldn't associate the American government great, nor some of the people. But yes there are people and groups who are worthy of that title.

But does it matter?
Egypt was once the most powerful civilization on Earth, so was Rome.
All civilizations have their rises and falls.

America had and has many aspects of greatness which have and will change over time. That's my 2 cents anyway.

Originally posted by votan
OP what is your idea of a great nation and why does the USA not fall into your idea of greatness.

Equality, a transparent government, getting a job based on your qualifications and not the color of your skin (affirmative action), a government that follows the US Constitution to the T, a government that lives within it's means and only fights just wars and doesn't police the world. A life without getting a permit every time you want to do one little thing. Having access to affordable health care, if I get cancer I should be able to get treatment without declaring bankruptcy.

Honestly we shouldn't even notice the Federal government, I don't know about yall but I don't even pay attention to my local government (county), you know why? Because they don't interfere in my life, I don't ever hear anything about them, I never notice them, it's like they aren't even there, unless I have to pay a ticket, or get called for Jury Duty, and that's exactly how the Federal Government should be, transparent without all the Bureaucracy.

The only reason why people think this country is great is because we are supposedly "rich" even though we are trillions in debt. We supposedly have the greatest health care in the world that only the privileged have access to without going into debt, and we have the greatest or evilest(according to some civilians in said countries) military in the world, as far as I'm concerned I'm not too proud of this country at all, and I never have been. People fear us and despise us, for good reason.

reply to post by Uniceft17


Those points may be correct, but what you're forgetting is that Americans go "Woo!". No other nation on the planet goes "Woo!" quite like the Americans. The average American will go "Woo!" upon successfully cooking a frozen apple pie. He will go "Woo!" upon successfully managing to avoid stepping in dog crap. And he'll go "Woo!" whether he's raping and murdering Native Americans or any other dang darker-skinned sumbitches that dare stand between him and his dollar.

Woo.

reply to post by Uniceft17


The only thing this nation has become is a nation of whiners and moaners like yourself and most of the posters in this topic. There were periods of ignorance with women's rights and slavery, but now they have the same if not more opportunity than white males in this nation. No other nation in the world has been as economically prosperous, militarily strong, and culturally diverse as America. The types of people who focus so much on social issues in the past are the same people that are keeping us there.

I love having infinite opportunity, I love having so many amazing universities, I love my streets, towns, people, and I love having the ability to take my own firearm down to the range and shooting off a few. I couldn't live this life as easily as I do now if I weren't anywhere else. Instead of constantly looking for things to complain about, why don't you all count your blessings?

For the most part, the common people of this nation have been great. The leadership never has been. Greed and corruption has been at the governmental level since the beginning. the people of the nation have been lied to, cheated, and robbed since day one.