What is punishment for taking up sins of the world? Death or Hell??

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

And about a person who never knew about Jesus pbuh or Muhammad pbuh, he wouldnt end up in hell for that. Every baby is born with the true belief and the right tendancy, its called "fitrah" in arabic, only later the baby may drift away by influence of surrounding.

Bull crap. If a child is raised away from all spirituality, I can guarantee that chances are equally good that it may be Christian, Buddhit, or Taoist.

Quite honestly, you are full of it.

I think you're taking what he said the wrong way...

Muslim is just a label.... apparently one that means submission to God...

New born children came directly from God... They are the closest thing we have on earth to God having just came from him...

The label isn't important.... the fact that they know God exists, and arn't able to verbalize that experience is...

Though newborns soon forget where they come from and become fully emersed in our world

reply to post by Akragon


thanks for clearing up what i meant to AfterInfinity.
.
Is forbidding injustice and being jealous the same?
I believe the God in OT is the same in NT and in Quran, just grossly misrepresented in OT.
Its just easier to say God is Jealous so better just worship Him and majority will be afraid enough and do it, but all people are not same, some question more.
My point being if i after coming to realise who made me, who is the only Creator choose to worship just God, am i worshipping Him because He jealously demanded? And if i promote it, am i blindly following an OT command? And isnt it an absolute truth?
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And i am sorry about putting words in your mouth, dint mean to, just assumed that you meant that.
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And so you believe in purgatory? Then i'l ask you, will the 2nd chance be blind again like the 1st or they'l remember that its 2nd chance, and you may guess where i am going..
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I meant not just for the babies, even adults who grew up without any belief being taught to them actively or passively, and about the adults who got a wrong belief and never knew the true message, ya God would test them but that would be a blind test and thats just fair to all. God would already know what they'l do, its just for their benifit so that they know what they did and that they deserve what they are getting.

reply to post by logical7

Is forbidding injustice and being jealous the same?
I believe the God in OT is the same in NT and in Quran, just grossly misrepresented in OT.
Its just easier to say God is Jealous so better just worship Him and majority will be afraid enough and do it, but all people are not same, some question more.

This is a product of OT thinking... I don't believe God is Jealous... HE has no reason to be Jealous, though the OT God does... Think of it this way...

Why would God be Jealous if he created all...? Before all there was nothing so what could he possibly be Jealous of?

OT God is Jealous because HE/she/it knows there is other Gods... Thus he has a reason...

My point being if i after coming to realise who made me, who is the only Creator choose to worship just God, am i worshipping Him because He jealously demanded?

Again... OT God is Jealous.... The true God of creation is above Jealousy...

And if i promote it, am i blindly following an OT command? And isnt it an absolute truth?

Correct...

And i am sorry about putting words in your mouth, dint mean to, just assumed that you meant that.

You know what they say about Assuming don't you?

And so you believe in purgatory?

No... Please refer to the above statement...

Then i'l ask you, will the 2nd chance be blind again like the 1st or they'l remember that its 2nd chance, and you may guess where i am going..

No... We are blinded by the material world.... No one (save one) remembers the after/before life

I meant not just for the babies, even adults who grew up without any belief being taught to them actively or passively, and about the adults who got a wrong belief and never knew the true message, ya God would test them but that would be a blind test and thats just fair to all. God would already know what they'l do, its just for their benifit so that they know what they did and that they deserve what they are getting.

At the time of death ALL will know the truth of God... and no one will be able to deny it...

Beliefs matter little in this world... Action or lack there of matters...

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

reply to post by Akragon


i just tried to tell you how popularly its done in OT, its not my opinion, about the jealousy part.
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And i agree God is not Jealous, what i am saying that there is only One God and so when He sees people worship others, wouldnt He tell its futile as it wouldnt benifit, and so do you think God should answer my prayers even if i pray to my pc? And when i put a question mark, i am asking, not assuming.
.
Also tell me did you mean that i am wrong in worshipping only God and endorsing and promoting it? Your "correct" could be a reply to any of my questions and i asked two contradicting ones in that part.
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And how will everyone know about God at death?, and how will that help if you say that what we did in this life matters?
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Could you tell me whats your belief. God, life, afterlife etc.

reply to post by logical7

And i agree God is not Jealous

That might be your first step to this realization... You just disagreed with the God of the OT's word...

what i am saying that there is only One God and so when He sees people worship others, wouldnt He tell its futile as it wouldnt benifit, and so do you think God should answer my prayers even if i pray to my pc?

Why would he answer if you're not speaking to him?

Also tell me did you mean that i am wrong in worshipping only God and endorsing and promoting it?

read your reply...

And if i promote it, am i blindly following an OT command?

It is my belief that the OT is not the word of God... It is the word of men, Guided by an Imposter... Thus if you promote it, you follow commands of men, not of God... without understanding who the true God is, and who he is NOT

And what happens to the blind when they follow the blind?

And how will everyone know about God at death?, and how will that help if you say that what we did in this life matters?

When when your body fails... and you're still alive... Would you not change your beliefs?

Only a fool wouldn't

Could you tell me whats your belief. God, life, afterlife etc.

That would take ages my friend... My beliefs are outlined and defended in my threads....

reply to post by Akragon

That might be your first step to this
realization... You just disagreed with
the God of the OT's word...

i dont think OT is by God, there could be still truths in it that were sent by God, i believe that revealations were give to Moses and David, but the words in it are from men too, and men with motives, how can i forget that history depends upon who writes it.
The difference between our opinion is that you say the God of OT is wrong and i say God is One, just what people are talking about Him in OT is wrong and sometimes very wrong!

Why would he answer if you're not
speaking to him?

true! But isnt that jealous behaviour or not? God not answering my need just cause i am not asking Him?? My point being God has full right to educate me that i should only ask Him and avoid running after false gods, saints, priests etc that men made up.

It is my belief that the OT is not the
word of God... It is the word of men,
Guided by an Imposter... Thus if you promote it, you follow commands of
men, not of God... without
understanding who the true God is,
and who he is NOT

i said i'l promote what i know about true God and its also in OT, i wouldnt reject it just because its in a text i dont approve.
.
And when you say Imposter, what you mean? Some other god? Devil?
.
Also from where do you get your idea of true God? a scripture or reasoning or both?

When when your body fails... and
you're still alive... Would you not
change your beliefs?
Only a fool wouldn't

people also die suddenly, in sleep etc. And why would anyone change belief near death, they rather cling to it more fast and desperately. how would they know its a wrong one? are you indicating that people are hypocrites all their life knowing the right belief and they just will accept it just before their end?

That would take ages my friend... My
beliefs are outlined and defended in
my threads....

i was asking for a basic belief and it should take a few lines. God one? Any text? Any/all prophets? Or a more broad minded belief that all religions are leading to the same destination.

reply to post by logical7

i dont think OT is by God, there could be still truths in it that were sent by God, i believe that revealations were give to Moses and David, but the words in it are from men too, and men with motives, how can i forget that history depends upon who writes it.The difference between our opinion is that you say the God of OT is wrong and i say God is One, just what people are talking about Him in OT is wrong and sometimes very wrong!

Interesting... Its rare you see a christian admit such things... then again you do use the (pbuh) thing so that makes me "assume" you may be muslim...

Isn't that considered Heresy either way?

true! But isnt that jealous behaviour or not?

Not...

God not answering my need just cause i am not asking Him??

Oh ye of little Faith...

Sorry i had to...

Read...

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

My point being God has full right to educate me that i should only ask Him and avoid running after false gods, saints, priests etc that men made up.

True... but don't you think he knows when you're talking to him?

Do you think you need a mediator to talk to God?

i said i'l promote what i know about true God and its also in OT, i wouldnt reject it just because its in a text i dont approve.

You are free to do as you will... and i didn't say "reject" the OT... perhaps the God of it though.... its still a great read, just lacking in spiritual knowledge...

And when you say Imposter, what you mean? Some other god? Devil?

A lesser "God".... Not the Father of creation... The bible does say Satan is the God of this world... believe it or not...

Also from where do you get your idea of true God? a scripture or reasoning or both?

The Gospels... Specifically the words of Jesus... And Thomas

people also die suddenly, in sleep etc. And why would anyone change belief near death, they rather cling to it more fast and desperately. how would they know its a wrong one?

All will be revealed once you pass... Beliefs don't matter when the truth is right in front of your face...

And i didn't say "near death"... i said once your body fails... meaning "after the death of the body"

are you indicating that people are hypocrites all their life knowing the right belief and they just will accept it just before their end?

No...

You're baseing what you say on religion... Basically whos religion is right...

God doesn't have a religion...

was asking for a basic belief and it should take a few lines. God one? Any text? Any/all prophets? Or a more broad minded belief that all religions are leading to the same destination.

Read the gospels... and what HE said... not what the Authors said about him...

or read my threads..

reply to post by Akragon

Interesting... Its rare you see a

christian admit such things... then

again you do use the (pbuh) thing so

that makes me "assume" you may be

muslim...

Isn't that considered Heresy either way?

i am a muslim and its

not heresy in islam,

Quran 5:48] And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced- out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie(race) one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

Oh ye of little Faith...

Sorry i had to...

Read...

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no

thought for your life, what ye shall eat,...

thats one of my favourite verses in NT.

Still trying to implement it fully in my life..

True... but don't you think he knows

when you're talking to him?

Do you think you need a mediator to

talk to God?

He knows ofcourse. And i dont think a mediator is needed, i am very against that idea.

A lesser "God".... Not the Father of

creation... The bible does say Satan is

the God of this world... believe it or

not...

i believe it, although i would add that even desires of men and egos make them alter the texts,



"Then woe to those who write

the Book with their own hands

and then say, 'This is from Allah,'

To purchase with it a little price!

Woe to them for what their hands

have written and woe to them for thet they earn thereby." [Al-

Qur'an 2:79]

.

"And verily, among them is a

party who distort the Book with

their tongue (as they read), so

that you may think it is from the

Book, but it is not from the Book,

and they say, 'This is from Allah', but it is not from Allah; and they

speak a lie against Allah while

they know it." [Al-Qur'an 3:78]

All will be revealed once you pass...

Beliefs don't matter when the truth is

right in front of your face...

And i didn't say "near death"... i said

once your body fails... meaning "after

the death of the body"

i agree to that, but will that help? Isnt that the purpose of life to test who is what.

If i do a crime, i would be shown mercy if i turn myself up to the police/law before getting caught,but after that i cant say ok now i believe(turn myself up)
it wouldnt be the same even ridiculous.
(10:90) And We led the Children of Israel across the sea. Then Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them in iniquity and transgression until Pharaoh cried out while he was drowning: 'I believe that there is no god but Allah in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am also one of those who submit to Allah.

(10:91) (Thereupon came the response): 'Now you believe, although you disobeyed earlier and were one of the mischief-makers.

(10:92) We shall now save your corpse that you may serve as a sign of warning for all posterity, although many men are heedless of Our signs.

No...

You're baseing what you say on

religion... Basically whos religion is

right...

God doesn't have a religion...

why should God have a religion? God informs us of what He is, the do's and donts throught scripture and that becomes a religion. There is only one religion sent by God time and time again(Basics) its people (some/many)who refused to get corrected when they drifted branching over time into many religions.

.
I never read gospel of Thomas, i'l do it.

reply to post by logical7


We take it on faith that man was inspired by a higher power to write the Bible. Considering what man has done to achieve power when they BELIEVED they were doing the right thing, I'm not inclined to offer such faith in the matter.

When a higher power deems us worthy of producing itself in our full perception to change the course of our world, that is when I'll believe that your god is real, and that it cares enough to step in when needed. Until then, the Bible and all other sacred texts are the products of mortals who are more than capable of deluding themselves and fooling others with the hope as one may dangle a carrot before an ox.

double post.

triple post!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

We take it on faith that man was inspired by a higher power to write the Bible. Considering what man has done to achieve power when they BELIEVED they were doing the right thing, I'm not inclined to offer such faith in the matter.

When a higher power deems us worthy of producing itself in our full perception to change the course of our world, that is when I'll believe that your god is real, and that it cares enough to step in when needed. Until then, the Bible and all other sacred texts are the products of mortals who are more than capable of deluding themselves and fooling others with the hope as one may dangle a carrot before an ox.

what you say is true except the step in when needed part.
The aim of religion is surely that change for better. Unfortunately the followers are not up to the mark and torn apart by conflicting goals, aspirations, desires etc.
But a question to you, what is your responsibility when you understand more than others?
God has given humans the responsibility of the world and He interferes but not directly, He checks and contains an evil/wrong group by another group.
I fully agree with you that religions have done a lot of damage but do you blame God or people? Or how it proves non existence of God? If He steps in literally only a fool would still disbelieve. The whole point in Him remaining Unseen is that people behave in a good way yet not forced to do so out of outright fear, then the free will will collaspe.
You think anyone would do a sin if Heaven & Hell are visible in the sky?
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Its a blind experiment yet not completely blind, just enough balanced to let people swing either way.
Imagine 7 billion tiny free wills colliding and interacting, they all have a choice to harmonise their will with the higher power and humble themselves and ideally reach a point of a dream world with peace, justice, all the good values. But how many will? Theist and atheist alike? Isnt selfishnessh greed and ego present in all?

reply to post by logical7

The aim of religion is surely that change for better. Unfortunately the followers are not up to the mark and torn apart by conflicting goals, aspirations, desires etc.

Judging by the shadows these Judaic and Abrahamic religions have cast upon society, I am forced to conclude that change is not of the greatest priority. Familiarity takes the throne, and as such, change is gazed upon with suspicion and skepticism to the point that, when they finally make a decision, no one is even remotely compelled to make the change anymore. It just causes too much trouble in their minds. It raises too many questions.

But a question to you, what is your responsibility when you understand more than others?
God has given humans the responsibility of the world and He interferes but not directly, He checks and contains an evil/wrong group by another group.

Perhaps, when someone thinks they understand more than others, that is their ego talking and not their spirit.

The only wisdom there is, is in knowing you know nothing. - Socrates

It has been shown throughout history that any person who believes themselves smarter or more deserving will fall to their pride, whether it be brought about through their mistakes or the peoples' spite. It's hard to hate a humble man - and sadly, the most influential people are not humble. Popularity is the power of gods, because the people are the power. Why do you think the Vatican is so mighty, even after all these years?

And yet, they are weak. Because without their people, they know nothing. Without their wealth, they have nothing. Without their bibles, they are nothing. SO what do they have, really? What do they know? What real power do they have? They have been given their power. None of what their power is really their's.

And so, their understanding is founded upon false pride. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the results of such an establishment.

I fully agree with you that religions have done a lot of damage but do you blame God or people? Or how it proves non existence of God? If He steps in literally only a fool would still disbelieve. The whole point in Him remaining Unseen is that people behave in a good way yet not forced to do so out of outright fear, then the free will will collaspe.

I blame the people who redefined a power that once existed. It was a power that was available to all, until a select few decided that the nations could no longer handle such divine influence, such cosmic tools. And in order to hide the conversion, they carefully sculpted a new god from the ruins, so as to keep the truth a secret hidden in plain sight. I can't blame a substance that does not control the human will, but I can blame the human will that fears the substance. But does it? Does it really fear that divinity? Or does it fear what its fellow humans will do if they have such divine power?

s that people behave in a good way yet not forced to do so out of outright fear, then the free will will collaspe

That's bullcrap. If Hell and Satan and God's wrath and demons and possession and plagues and sacrifice are not "outright fear", then what are they? People get threatened with damnation every Sunday. Children are warned about Lucifer like the bogeymen that creep around in their closets.

Free will collapses when the creator is omniscient and omnipotent. That means responsibility over every single timeline in every single existence, from the first instant to the last instant. No exceptions. That negates free will. And if you don't believe me, then you don't understand the full implications of such power. The inherent abilities of such potency. If the Christians are correct in their claims, then free will does not exist. Every seat in heaven and hell were crafted knowing exactly who would sit there and why. And if they do end up sitting there, that means "God" chose to do nothing. He looked at their fate and said, "I'm cool with that."

In the court of law, being present but failing to act amounts to the same as being an accomplice in the act. In this sense, "God" is "Satan"s cohort, his partner in crime. And even before "Satan" was born, "God"s omniscient abilities had to have informed him of every single cruel act the dude would commit, and yet nothing was changed to alter the futures that would be destroyed by such a being.

Free will? Ha. Don't make me laugh. Omniscience and omnipotence renders free will obsolete. If the Bible and its popular interpretations are to be taken as completely true, the only being in existence who has free will, mortal or otherwise, is "God". He is said to be the ending and the beginning, where everything comes from and everything will go back to. Everything that will ever happen, kind and cruel, will happen with his consent. It can happen no other way.

reply to post by logical7


I have one more thing to add in response to your post. I ran out of space in the above response.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

This, my friend, is the most eloquent summary of the biggest questions in my mind that I have ever come across. It essentially outlines the some of the foremost flaws in the character design of the deity you seem to worship.

Either the men who wrote your precious Bible were liars, or your "God" is a liar. Either way, it seems your entire religion is flawed to the point of stupendous ineptitude, should the followers ever decide to open their eyes a bit. And if omniscience and omnipotence are both full and able factors in this equation, then free will is not a viable answer, and never will be.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I am forced to conclude
that change is not of the greatest
priority. Familiarity takes the throne,
and as such, change is gazed upon with suspicion and skepticism to the
point that, when they finally make a
decision, no one is even remotely
compelled to make the change
anymore. It just causes too much
trouble in their minds. It raises too many questions.

again, isnt that a human weakness? Desire to cling to the known. And any organised religion's leaders are more interested in number than having the courage to take a stand even if that is against higher ups.

Perhaps, when someone thinks they
understand more than others, that is
their ego talking and not their spirit.
The only wisdom there is, is in
knowing you know nothing. -
Socrates

isnt thinking oneself to be self sufficient and capable of finding morals and values without help of God egotistical?
To make myself humble and also believe that everyone is equal, i need Someone Higher.

If Hell and Satan and
God's wrath and demons and
possession and plagues and sacrifice
are not "outright fear", then what are
they?

hearing about it still gives you a choice to call it "bull crap" or believe and act better if not due to understanding then at least by fear. But watching it would tilt the balance to crush free will.

Free will collapses when the creator is
omniscient and omnipotent. That
means responsibility over every single timeline in every single existence, from
the first instant to the last instant. No
exceptions. That negates free will. And
if you don't believe me, then you don't
understand the full implications of
such power.

no free will doesnt collapses. You are free to believe Him to be Omnipotent or not, but ya if you believe then you have to let go free will in a large part and humble down.
And just because God is aware from 1st instant to last. How it negates your free will? You are still blind and have a choice, its just that God knows it all along.

And even before
"Satan" was born, "God"s omniscient
abilities had to have informed him of
every single cruel act the dude would
commit, and yet nothing was changed to alter the futures that would be
destroyed by such a being.

very nicely put! But again isnt it due to the fact that you think this life is the end? so cruel acts due to that dude seem unjust to you and silence from God very ungodly. you want justice right in this world/life but what if Death is just an interval of This Movie and the second half makes it all good and just.
Or you think a humiliating death is punishment enough for hitlers of the world?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

"Is God willing to prevent evil,
but not able? Then he is not
omnipotent. Is he able, but not
willing? Then he is malevolent. Is
he both able and willing? Then
whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then
why call him God?" - Epicurus

eloquent indeed!
God choose not to interfere in the free will of humans directly, if a saint jumps from a high building and ask God to save him, he'l mostly die. Thats free will at work.
If i eat a banana and throw the peel on the path and someone falls, i am to blame, my action caused suffering, thats from where the evil comes. If you come along watch that peel before anyone fell, and throw it in a dustbin, then thats how God interfered.
The more the number of humble and caring people in the world, the lesser the banana peels (less being thrown, more being picked up and disposed) and the Justice would be done to all at the appointed time.(Judgement day)
but if God has spot Justice, i throw a peel and i slip and fall! A man stabs another and he himself dies! That would be an interesting world to observe!

reply to post by logical7

isnt thinking oneself to be self sufficient and capable of finding morals and values without help of God egotistical?

Which is the bigger killer, confidence or depression? Egomania or self-degradation? Self-esteem is not a sin.

To make myself humble and also believe that everyone is equal, i need Someone Higher.

Why? Why do you need to believe in this Biblical god to see everyone else as equal?

no free will doesnt collapses. You are free to believe Him to be Omnipotent or not, but ya if you believe then you have to let go free will in a large part and humble down.

Then you admit free will, in such a setting, is merely a delusion?

And just because God is aware from 1st instant to last. How it negates your free will? You are still blind and have a choice, its just that God knows it all along.

"God", in the Bible, is shown to change or judge events as they come along, according to how he feels about them. This implies a willingness to intercede on behalf of whomever he likes more. Therefore, if he is not present in an event, that means he has chosen not to intercede. This lack of intervention implies that he is perfectly happy with the proceedings as he foresees them, given his record of interfering whenever he damn well pleased. Essentially, if he wants to change something, he will. If he doesn't want to, he won't. The world in the NT and the OT proceeded according to how he wanted it to. Hell, he even drowned it for displeasing him. Does this sound like an incapable god to you?

Again:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

Read the above quote again. It seems you fail to understand it.

you want justice right in this world/life but what if Death is just an interval of This Movie and the second half makes it all good and just.
Or you think a humiliating death is punishment enough for hitlers of the world?

What if my mother was a hamster and my father smelt of elderberries? If you spit in one hand and "what if" in the other, which fills faster?

Stop dodging the point. Either admit you have no concrete basis for your premise, and that the Biblical god is a sham, or start producing some evidence to the contrary.

If you're so insistent on being right, then PROVE ME WRONG.

reply to post by logical7

I never read gospel of Thomas, i'l do it.

Please do... Its one of my Favorite books...

Tell me what you think...

Have a star for your thoughts as well

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Which is the bigger killer, confidence
or depression? Egomania or self-
degradation? Self-esteem is not a sin.

who will be more humble? One who thinks he is answerable to God, or one who is an egomaniac?
And spirituality has been proven to lengthen life, almost by 10years, God is a Solace and a Humbler.

Why do you need to believe in
this Biblical god to see everyone else
as equal?

not to see as equal, but to not inflate my ego and wreck havoc on people i interact with.

Then you admit free will, in such a
setting, is merely a delusion?

ya free will goes with surrendering to God, i cant murder, rape, cheat, steal not even throw a banana peel and hide to watch someone fall, although it would be so much fun!!

This lack of intervention
implies that he is perfectly happy with
the proceedings as he foresees them,
given his record of interfering
whenever he damn well pleased. Essentially, if he wants to change
something, he will. If he doesn't want
to, he won't.

indeed! Lab rats dont complain or get to choose the tests!! Ok jokes apart, well thats said just to make us humble, we are nothing! Its easier to accept it if we believe we are created, not so easy if we believe we are an accident. You complain about it but is it really the most important? or its just that you dont like that someone is behaving as if He is God.

"Is God willing to prevent evil,
but not able? Then he is not
omnipotent. Is he able, but not
willing? Then he is malevolent. Is
he both able and willing? Then
whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then
why call him God?" - Epicurus Read the above quote again. It seems
you fail to understand it.

answer this. who decided that the prevention of evil is the measurement of Godness? Epicurus?
Evil is a byproduct of free will, you want free will and want God to clean up the natural consequences? The more free will is surrendered towards goodness the less evil will occur. Hope you get it now.

If you're so insistent on being right,
then PROVE ME WRONG.

lets do this, you tell me your idea of a perfect god. How he should operate and we will put it to test.

reply to post by logical7

who will be more humble? One who thinks he is answerable to God, or one who is an egomaniac?
And spirituality has been proven to lengthen life, almost by 10years, God is a Solace and a Humbler.

Your "God" IS an egomaniac. He even breaks his own commandments. He impregnated another man's wife, he killed billions, and he is a jealous god, which means he covets. Furthermore, he has shown himself PROUDLY capable of almost all seven deadly sins. Not just capable, but PROUDLY capable. He flaunts his practices of the deadly sins.

What further proof do you need?

not to see as equal, but to not inflate my ego and wreck havoc on people i interact with.

You need to believe in a bloodthirsty tyrannical egomaniac with infinite power and knowledge in order to control yourself? Interesting.

ya free will goes with surrendering to God, i cant murder, rape, cheat, steal not even throw a banana peel and hide to watch someone fall, although it would be so much fun!!

So all people who do not surrender themselves to your "God" have free will? Their fates are their own?

Its easier to accept it if we believe we are created, not so easy if we believe we are an accident. You complain about it but is it really the most important? or its just that you dont like that someone is behaving as if He is God.

It's fairly important, considering the number of people who wonder every day if their lives are predesignated, or a random effect created by an infinite series of causes. If everything we have so far discussed is to be taken as true, then their lives are predesignated. Every person who exists, has existed, or ever will exist has every instant of their lives known and designed fully by your "God". It is impossible for it to be otherwise, if the modern interpretation of the Bible is to be taken as fully accurate.

The importance of this is simple: no matter what you do, it was meant to be so, or "God" would never have let it happen. The opportunity would never have arisen. He would know you better than you know yourself, he would know everything around you better than the engineers who created it, and he would know exactly what to do to bring about any effect you can think of. And he would be fully capable of doing it. Therefore, no matter what you do, "God" has foreseen it. And if it happened, it happened because "God" allowed it.

This means there is no choice. There is only his plan, and you are the pawn that fulfills it. THis means that every instant of every moment of your life, you are living exactly as he wills it because it was all planned out from the start, down to the tiniest detail. Which means no matter where you go or what you do, if you end up in Heaven or Hell, he made it so. He had your fate written down before your ancestors were a gleam in his eye. Hell, he had your great grandchildrens' stories written down in full before the birth of America.

That's why it's important. If such parameters defining this "God" are to be taken as entirely accurate, then there is no point in fighting or arguing. Nothing will be changed, because it is all according to plan. That's what the preacher says, anyway. See what cop-out answers do for us? We have no control. We never did. Accepting Jesus is just their way of accepting that they have no control and never will. And theoretically, you could say they were saved before they even popped out of the womb. "God" knew they would accept Jesus, and so he preemptively bestowed their gift. Assuming, of course, the gift is real.

Now do you see?

answer this. who decided that the prevention of evil is the measurement of Godness?

"God" is Light and Love, supposedly. I thought "Satan" was the king of all that is evil? How can "God" share that throne with him? Do use your common sense. Your lack of critical thinking is repulsive.

Evil is a byproduct of free will,

So free will inevitably leads to evil... The angels are slaves, then? And "God" is a slave too?

you want free will and want God to clean up the natural consequences?

Hell yes! My mother used to tell me, "You make your bed, and you lie in it." Why should this "God" dude have to clean up the messes he makes? He made everything! If he screws up, who else is supposed to fix it? He's the lord of all that is righteous and holy, right? What excuse does he have not to fix what he breaks?

Again, common sense!

lets do this, you tell me your idea of a perfect god. How he should operate and we will put it to test.

Oh, clever. But I'm human. I don't have any clear idea of a perfect power, because an imperfect mold does not create a perfect vase. And if you were the least bit prepared to hold your own in this discussion, you would already know that about yourself as well.

See, what people really worship these days is not a god. It's a general impression of what we are as a species, and what we want to be as a species. A hybrid of the two. We're hunting perfection, and we're looking in all the wrong places. After becoming a completely materialistic society, our spirituality has adjusted to match our personality as a species. You can tell a lot about someone by their religion. But don't bother asking, because I won't answer.