For all those who like war or think war's necessary...

Memory Hole

Not cool. Not cool at all. Tell me any of this is necessary.

It's truly sad that the innocents get caught up in the mess that the grown ups start, isn't it?

However, I wonder how many kids were murdered by Saddam and company? I wonder how many kids are brainwashed from infancy to HATE other cultures? How many of these babies could have grown up to hate you or I to the point they wouldn't even blink before killing us and our families?

It is sad. War is pure evil and mankind at his lowest state, but turning away from it does not solve the problem. I would like nothing more than taking those children away from the hellhole they live in, but that's not possible.

It appears the purpose of your post was to graphically depict war, and you've succeeded. Please explain to me how to stop it? Nothing short of God can do that I'm afraid.

If I remember correctly, didn't you say that you couldn't wait to get out of college to go join the U.S. Marines and become commissioned as an Officer?

To me, you're doing the "Kerry-Two-step!"

Or do you want to go into service just to be kicked out for refusing orders to go into combat?

You're one way one minute then you do a "180" the next! War is necessary at times and people will get maimed and killed. There is nothing on the planet that will change this fact!

Originally posted by Intelearthling
You're one way one minute then you do a "180" the next! War is necessary at times and people will get maimed and killed. There is nothing on the planet that will change this fact!

Yeah imagine the hell america would be enduring under the wrath of saddam, if we didnt take him out, we might not be sitting here today......good thing we got rid of him and is weapons of ma......ooops.........nevermind

There are war fans no doubt. Is it necessary?Shouldnt be. Do we know whats going on? Not the whole picture, but some of us who still suppport the war are aware of the images and the innocents who get caught in the cross fire.

I don't take joy from the fact anybody is dying. I just don't beleive you stop it by walking away and letting the likes of Bin Laden claim Victory. His followers and those like them are more likely to beleive it than we would if Bush claimed it for us.

And thats just another 9/11 or another war down the track.

Bush should go. We should stay.

a lot of ingrates seem to believe that the current war in iraq is typical of all wars in regards to neccessity and such. well it's not. i support the war but even i'll admit it had less neccessity then wars past. however, to go to the extreme of saying all war is unneccesary based solely off the opinions brought about by the current war is ridiculous, irresponsible, and foolish. certainly, to run from those that declare war on you is not the way to survive or win.

I'm not apportioning a level of necessity to this war over any other. I just think it is.

Would I prefer to wake up tomorrow and find myself in 1944 with us fighting Hitler and Tojo. Yes. It would be clearer for me and less devisive with my freinds and family.

It is necessary to respond to this:


www.geocities.com...









For the WTC Jumpers

"WHEN THE DEVIL HAD FINISHED ALL THE TEMPTING HE LEFT HIM, TO AWAIT ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY"
-Luke 5:13

He came back,
This time for me.
On the 110th floor I was so close to God
I could almost grab his beard.
Never before has heaven been this close to hell.
I can feel its fire on the floors below
Raising ash and paper and smoke
Thick as Satan�s laughter.
At the window, shattered,
I look for salvation and he tempts me,
Dares me to jump,
Whispering a psalm in my ear
He spits as he speaks:
�He will bid his angels watch over you.
With their hands they will support you.�
I mumble �Amen,�
Close my eyes and sense the rush of air.
I cannot breathe until I finally feel
Those hands of angels
Hard as cement against my face.

by Doug Seubert


www.geocities.com...

Originally posted by Intelearthling
If I remember correctly, didn't you say that you couldn't wait to get out of college to go join the U.S. Marines and become commissioned as an Officer?

monica wouldn't last a week at the Basic School.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
It is necessary to respond to this:


www.geocities.com...
....

What are you saying, Grady? Innocents killed, justifies killing even more innocents?

[edit on 19-10-2004 by Durden]

sweatmonicaIdo,

War is obviously a horrible, nasty process, but your argument lacks any perspective. To use pictures like those as a reason for not fighting a war is to ignore mitigating circumstances and the causes behind the war.

If an opponent of abortion were to post pictures of near full term babies ripped apart piece by piece in their mother�s womb, would you call for end to ALL abortions? How about if it saves the mother's life?

Do you see the problem with your argument yet?

How about if a neighboring country invades yours, and begins killing, raping and pillaging your friends and neighbors. Is it wrong to fight a war then?

We are ALL going to die, some sooner than others. I personally feel that what gives your life and subsequently your death meaning is what you do with it. Dying in a war so that others may live free, seems a noble death to me.

Now one CAN argue whether the goals behind a specific war, such as the current war in Iraq, justifies the death of thousands. But to imply that ALL war is wrong is height of naivet�, for the acts of war are not evil in and of themselves.

JMHO

-Cypher

War is truly not cool. I read one members post that only God can save this world from war. I disagree there. War is mankind's creation, not God thus stopping it is not God's priority.

Unfortunately humankind will find a million reasons why they engage in war, the basic essence of which is subjugation of will from one's point of view to the other - by forceful means. That's all. Pity if only these very people could realise that the best way to achieve that is through winning the trust of the said "enemy" and engaging with them.

"Thou shalt love thy enemy".

I sincerely hope the next US administration (whichever it is) does not actively persue war as a means to an end. In fact there will be no end to war if one party percieves that the other's actions are unjustifiable, which I'm afraid has been the dominant policy of almost all western nations till now.

Pity.

Grady,

We all remember WTC and thats why most Australians had no problems with going into Afghanistan and shooting the crap out of AQ and the Taliban there.

But the WTC-9/11 crew were Saudis predominantly recruited by Saudis,led by a Saudi, hiding in Afghanistan, protected by the Taliban.

As far as we know he's still there with AQ with something significantly less than.....30,000 (?)Coalition troops hunting for and fighting his people.

Meanwhile

Iraq and Saddam (no matter how big of MFSOB he was) had no links with that operation or deathwish relating to it.

He had no WMDs when we all went into Iraq
His only terrorists were not your terrorists and if they stepped wrong they would have been nobodies terrorists.

And it doesnt matter how many million times that the PR people repeat the message, there are not enough times you can repeat that will convince Saddam and Iraq were in on the 9/11 attack.

Despite beleiving this, other than the 9/11 connection, before the war I still beleived in going into Iraq

Given the open arms no worries welcome we received (not) in Iraq when the National Army collapsed, and the fact that we opened the bloody door for these AQ type groups to flourish and come out the wood work,in hindsight it would have been better to leave the SOB Saddam in power, given them the economic and humanitarian aid, and created the conditions for the Iraqi people to realise they were onto a good thing instead of bombing the bejesus out of them.

Given the situation created in Iraq and the failure to have a proper contingency plan and force in place for the aftermath, I am forced to continue to support the war.

Australia, myself included, will continue to support the US Grady, don't worry about that, because although we put petrol on the fire by mistake, you don't walk away and let the house burn down.

But will you stop pushing the party line Iraq is all for the victims of 9/11 because even a lot of the supporters of the war stopped beleiving that a hell of a long time ago!

[edit on 19-10-2004 by craigandrew]

Originally posted by OpenMinded
It's truly sad that the innocents get caught up in the mess that the grown ups start, isn't it?

While I agree whole-heartedly with that statement, I fear that in the case of the current situation (Iraq) that it's giving too much credit to those who started the whole thing to call them "grown ups". Certainly they felt/feel that it is necessary, though the reasons they give remain seemingly fluid with respect to politics.

There can be no doubt that Saddam Hussein was/is a horrible person. Nor can there be any doubt that the people of Iraq deserved better than the tyrant and his sons who we propped up for the better part of 25 years of brutal rule.

However, there can also be no doubt that they deserved better than our feeble attempt to "liberate" them or "disarm" our old friend, Saddam. Because the mental midgets making the decision did everything they could to avoid service in Viet Nam (who could blame them?), and because they either lack the curiousity to learn about that failed operation or are driven by the economic interests of themselves and their big-business cronies, we are now stuck in a war that we can no longer strategically win. Any chance of the sort of victory that the administration continues to allude to passed a long time ago.

I am one of those whose fear following 9/11 led me to put my trust in this administration. To answer the original question, I don't know for certain if this war was necessary, and unfortunately, even if it was, it appears that we will never know for certain. It certainly seems to have been unnecessary in the manner that we have conducted it.

As for Afghanistan... if September 11 was indeed the work of OBL/UBL/al Qaeda, I am whole-heartedly in favor of US/"allied" operations in Afghanistan, and am disappointed that these efforts are not more wide-ranging. The government's apparent lack of interest in bin Laden is frustrating, and makes me slightly suspicious given the knowledge that U.S. energy corporations have interest in a "secure" Afghanistan, or at least one that we can "work with" in order to build their precious natural gas pipeline. Why else would the Bush Administration give tens of millions of dollars in aid to the Taliban earlier in 2001, knowing they were hiding bin Laden there in the mountains? As much of a pivotal event as 9/11 was, it wasn't exactly a news flash that the Taliban was evil.

The situation in the entire region seems to be deteriorating, and hopefully sooner rather than later we can elect new leaders who may rethink our approach.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Cypher
To use pictures like those as a reason for not fighting a war is to ignore mitigating circumstances and the causes behind the war.

How about using pictures to justify starting a war?

How about if a neighboring country invades yours, and begins killing, raping and pillaging your friends and neighbors. Is it wrong to fight a war then?

I guess you just explained the Iraqis point of view in the current situation (aside from the US being a neighboring country).

Dude who ever likes that stuff must be one sick little ba***rd I can even belive someone took the time to dig them up excuse the coincidental pun what could possess someone to want to gather stuff like that outside of the purposes of prosecution it is truely a sick world when this is entertainment

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
Dude who ever likes that stuff must be one sick little ba***rd I can even belive someone took the time to dig them up excuse the coincidental pun what could possess someone to want to gather stuff like that outside of the purposes of prosecution it is truely a sick world when this is entertainment

Its not used for entertainment, its so people who are "blissfully ignorant" to get a taste of the real side of war, and not pretty pictures of GWB on a cruiser with "mission accomplished" sprawled out behind him.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
it is truely a sick world when this is entertainment

I didn't take it as geared toward "entertainment" - I took it as further proof that the truth hurts.

Maybe if we were all a little more versed in what the realities of war really are and what it actually means to the innocent people on the ground, we wouldn't be as quick to support it.

Further - this is in the context of a war that was partially justified by images of Saddam's victims, and during which our government used images of the bloodied bodies of Saddam's sons as actual entertainment. However horrible they were as "human beings", by those standards this is also wholly inappropriate as well.

War is horrible.

It constitutes a break down of the only two things that separate us from animals. Those two things being rational thought and civil society.

That being said, someone try telling the Jews and Chinese in WWII that they should not fight back.

Sometimes it is a nescessary evil, but I would not wish it on anyone.




[edit on 19-10-2004 by Facefirst]

Grady, Iraq had nothing to do with 911 as stated above, wake up. The british govenment have admitted there are no links. Maybe your govenment might do the same once the election is over!

911 is not a passport for America to retrieve the worlds oils supplies. Nor, 3/4 through the Iraqi war change there story for war to a human rights one.

If you want to get the peole reponsible for 911 start in Saudi Arabia. OH Bush won't go there will he has the family has close friends there, and Saudi's own a little slice of America, along with Jews owning a big slice. You enjoy fighting for foreign nations with shares in corperate America?

War, it will be the end of us.

[edit on 19-10-2004 by 7th_Chakra]