Wealthy Welfare...UK to Freeze Benefits as Inflation Bites?

Originally posted by NorthernThird
reply to post by DJOldskool

 

SecretFace is exaggerating for effect. But he's not far wrong.

Because a disabled couple, each looking after the other, in private rented accommodation can quite easily bring in over £50,000 per annum in benefits, what with Employment & Support Allowance, DLA, Housing Benefit, Council Tax Benefit & all the other freebies that "being poor" brings in. "Being poor", they'll get interest free loans from the |Social Fund, Community Care Grants, free prescriptions plus whatever the local council offers, meals on wheels, home helps ... our council even offers free sports centre membership.

They're the exception though. Most folk are stuck on £71 per week plus their rent.

Not exaggerating mate, you guys need to come down the south east, I'll even make it easy for you Bexleyheath, Bromley, Dartford, Crayford, Gravesend. That's just the benefit families, then you need to check out police raids on penthouse suits in London converted in to drug factories by Vietmanese or Jamaicans who have been in the country five minutes but given a place worth probably atleast a million. Town houses up in Chelsea rented through the council converted in to drug factories, with top brand music equipment and designer clothes still in packaging and money all over the place. Oh and this isn't Daily Mail news stories, this is my job!

Honestly I'm not exaggerating, I wish I was, this place is being ripped off something chronic. I don't blame the people doing it, the system is totally messed up, but you tell me how working families struggling with next to no help from the state is supposed to feel. It's alright saying the vulnerable in this country, but the vulnerable in this country are the workers! The average workers and those who have worked all their lives and now retired, nobody gives **** about those people who are keeping this country afloat while the rest have a right laugh at our expense.

I don't know how it is up north, but down here it sounds like a whole different ball game. As far as I'm concerned the only person who won't get anything from being unemployed is a single living British bloke who does not have a criminal record nor is a junkie.

Regardless of poor people on benifits. Its always the same cry from the rich and their pretend rich a$$ lickers. These same people who start the wars. (Not the poor) Are the first in the queue to avoid any actual war. Yet the poor are all encouraged to join up. Many do because of the state of the economy, caused by the rich an not the poor. Off they go waving flags and singing silly songs. To die in their millions in pointless stupid wars. Lions led by donkeys = rich a$$ holes. And their rewards? A benifit system,free education and a health servise. These benifits were won with the blood and deaths of our ancestors. prior to the world wars we lived liked slaves tugging our fore locks to some rich jumped up a$$ wipe,who wouldnt have a bean if it wasnt for the rule of right is might. Camoron only has his wealth. Because his dad did all his banking abroad and avoided paying any taxs here in the UK.
50 years later we are going back to the same old system and our elected MPs? Call us plebs and useless scum.
One would think that in todays modern world there would be a decent system in place were the wealth of the country was equally shared amongst the population. But we cant have that can we? Fairness? equality? a decent standard of living for every one? No these are crazy ideas. Much better that we have a bunch of thieving a$$holes in govt who do not represent the common man. But who are there to gain money and titles for them selves. They would die if they had to do a days graft like evry one else. Do as I say , not as I do. Roll on the revolution is all I can say.

The real question here is, which is more important to the British people. Is it keeping OAPs in fuel and food over the winter, keeping responsible yet poor families from destitution, and preventing a poverty explosion that would equal that of a less developed nation, OR is it keeping the minority of scumbag chav families with twenty kids each, the asylum seekers who also bring twenty mouths to the table, and the cheats in general, from getting thier hands on our tax money?

I fail entirely to believe that the correct way to deal with a problem is to STARVE IT OUT!! I think also that it will never be fair for a bunch of people who have never been in poverty, to be the ones to decide how best to avoid it. It is plain to see, that the only reason the people in government are even considering this move, is because they have never had a real personal life problem with money, since they were all born rich, or fell into lucrative work (ie legalised theft) early in thier carreers.

I spit on these entitled little Etonians, and I hope if you see them in the street that you will do the same.

reply to post by SecretFace


I understand your anger and frustration - it must be disheartening to say the least.

Firstly, it is a different world down south - I live in North East England and we in the north have become far too used to being crapped on and living on bear essentials etc - along with our Scottish bretheren we've always suffered the worst from our governments policies and screw up's.
Looks like it's beginning to affect the once so affluent south.

Secondly, most of what you describe isn't really the fault of the benefit system as such but rather succesive governments immigration policy and this country's draconian, narrow minded and outdated drug laws.

Thirdly, the fact that working people can't afford some of life's little luxuries only supports the arguement that there are very few well paid jobs around.
Where once over jobs in London and South East England paid far more than anywhere else in the UK due to the exorbitant cost of living, that no longer seems to be the case. You are now getting paid the same crap wages as the rest of us but still have the high living costs.

The point is, this country produces plenty enough wealth and resource to provide for all it's people - unfortunately the vast majority of that wealth is in the hands of an elite who refuse to re-invest it in this country and it's people.
To stop us turning our disillusionment and anger upon them they are making us turn on each other - and we are letting them do it.

Freeborn, mate you read my fkin mind.

reply to post by Freeborn


Nice post.

@SecretFace
I see where you are coming from, you are exposed to the worst elements. I contend that the majority you see with all the luxuries are supplementing their income somehow?

As for the factories, the punishment for growing it is not extreme and the profits from growing are HUGE. Geez if I was single with a flat and needed money id consider it.

reply to post by Freeborn


I could not agree more with your sentiments Freeborn. I live in a seafront town in Essex, right on the estuary of the Thames. I am living in a two bedroom flat with my mother and sister, and my mother is the one on the couch, despite protestations from myself and my sister. Our rent is six hundred plus a month.

Five minuites walk from here is a seafront on which multi-million pound dwellings are situated. My mother, my sister, and myself are all working, but we cannot get a place of the correct size for our little family unit. I am looking at maybe being able to move out when I am forty if I am lucky, and I will likely as not never be able to afford a pension when I get older. I am twenty seven now, but I cannot see a future in anything I am doing, or anything I could concievably do in the time to come.

Cost of living here in the South is such a bloody drain on everything we do, that it accounts for near enough ninety percent of everything we earn right now, once you get rid of tax and all that dross. One cannot save, because without breaking an awful lot of laws, there is no way to earn enough to move forward with a savings scheme of any kind! Its insanity right now!

Originally posted by SecretFace
I dont know anyone on benefits who is not living the same if not better lifestyle than I am and my wife and I combined bring in 60k a year. These people need to get a dose of reality. The real losers in this will be the private tennants who work for a living or those with mortgages. The long term cant be bothered mob and the countless immigrant families who get social housing straight away will continue to live a fantastic lifestyle that us workers can only dream of. The rich get richer, the worker gets hungrier.

Dont discount the effect of living in London! Your money, wherever it comes from, would go MUCH further elsewhere in the UK.

Also please remember there is more to the UK than London!

Originally posted by ANOK
One of the problems is our economic system doesn't give people much choice, either a crappy job, or assistance.

Our economic system gives huge choice, preceded by a free education. Someone has to do the “crappy jobs”, but one persons “crappy job” may be another person’s ideal. People have to start somewhere and if that means a "crappy job" from their perspective, then so be it.

Originally posted by ANOK
During feudalism workers were craftsmen who could produce a product from beginning to end. Capitalism took that away with the division of labour.

The division of labour is essential if we are to progress and live in a more complex world. In feudal times it would be great to be in one of the few professions where you were not desperately poor and living hand to mouth. The world of yesteryear was not some ripe apple with sun and laughter – it was pretty “crappy” for the majority.

Originally posted by ANOK
People get lazy because the system offers no real incentive to bother.

I take issue with this. People are lazy because being lazy pays. If there was not any cash for being lazy then people would suddenly find reason to be motivated. If people cannot help themselves then why should I (as a tax payer) subsidise their lethargy.

Regards

I take issue with this. People are lazy because being lazy pays. If there was not any cash for being lazy then people would suddenly find reason to be motivated. If people cannot help themselves then why should I (as a tax payer) subsidise their lethargy. Regards

reply to post by paraphi


a lot of the unemployed have worked, some of them have worked many years, quite a few are only unemployed since the economy went bad and guess what, they all paid taxes and paid into the system, so what makes you think YOU are paying for them? because your a tax payer right at this minute?

yes there are some people who do not want to work and are lazy, and it certainly is not the majority of unemployed.
the government is already tackling this by introducing work programs where people work for charities for 6 months or are placed on intensive job searching for 2 years, no excuses, no getting out of it, and if you don't turn up they stop the benefit.

read about it, watch the stuff on YouTube about this stuff. then you will see it has already changed, the problem is the government are now attacking those in need who have paid into the system for years and want to work.

Originally posted by lifeform11

I take issue with this. People are lazy because being lazy pays. If there was not any cash for being lazy then people would suddenly find reason to be motivated. If people cannot help themselves then why should I (as a tax payer) subsidise their lethargy. Regards

reply to post by paraphi

 

a lot of the unemployed have worked, some of them have worked many years, quite a few are only unemployed since the economy went bad and guess what, they all paid taxes and paid into the system, so what makes you think YOU are paying for them? because your a tax payer right at this minute?

Not to mention the families of claimnants. For instance, I am currently unemployed and if my children did not suffer tax and NHI bills (theft) and instead used the money to support me, we would all be better off!

the problem is the government are now attacking those in need who have paid into the system for years and want to work

Some 39% of Londoner's claiming Housing Benefit are in work!

Also, the sheer contemptable incompetence of the bunch of useless toffs currently in charge means their so-called 'cuts' and 'we are all in this together' austerity measures are actually costing quite a lot and increasing the deficit/public debt!

Originally posted by paraphi
Our economic system gives huge choice, preceded by a free education. Someone has to do the “crappy jobs”, but one persons “crappy job” may be another person’s ideal. People have to start somewhere and if that means a "crappy job" from their perspective, then so be it.

Then we must have a completely different definition of the word choice. Either that or you are simply naive to the reality of "choice".

I realise crappy jobs have to be done, but that really wasn't what I was referring too.

If you fully understood how it could be with worker ownership you would realise that under capitalism workers have very little choice.

The division of labour is essential if we are to progress and live in a more complex world. In feudal times it would be great to be in one of the few professions where you were not desperately poor and living hand to mouth. The world of yesteryear was not some ripe apple with sun and laughter – it was pretty “crappy” for the majority.

I disagree. Division of labour just makes production more efficient, it doesn't effect progress. In fact I could argue it slows progress. Capitalism most definitely slows progress, unless you call an iphone progress? It's just an update to something invented decades ago. Why not work on progressing energy production away from oil? Because it makes people too much money. Money is not progress, finding ways to make money easier is not progress. A community taking care of it's self with worker owned industry based on the communities needs would be progress.

I take issue with this. People are lazy because being lazy pays. If there was not any cash for being lazy then people would suddenly find reason to be motivated. If people cannot help themselves then why should I (as a tax payer) subsidise their lethargy.

Well it's a matter of opinion isn't it?

The problem is people can't help themselves in a system that doesn't offer the ability to help themselves. If people were educated to help themselves with a craft, instead of being conditioned to except a system that is not in their best interest, then they could have at least a chance to help themselves.

But the capitalist system is not interested in making workers wealthy, it's about keeping the means of production in the hands of the few. If capitalism made the workers wealthy the owners would lose their control. If jobs were in abundance private owners would have to continually increase pay and improve conditions, because the worker would have the power to simply go find another job if they were not happy. So there is never going to be enough jobs to go around. Lazy or not under capitalism there will always be an unemployed class of healthy workers, and it is in the capitalists interest to keep them healthy.

As long as we have capitalism we will have the government we have, and we will have the liberal social-safety net we have. Like it or not it can't be any other way.

If we had worker ownership it would end unemployment, and then there is no excuse to not work.

It's #ed how we live in a world of printing presses, and even though society can print money at will, we still have poverty. If only we had an honest monetary system.

Originally posted by ANOK
Then we must have a completely different definition of the word choice. Either that or you are simply naive to the reality of "choice".

There are vast numbers of career choices in multiple sectors. I fail to see how anyone does not have a choice. Some careers require preparation e.g. education and experience, but that’s part of choice. Some people want things on a plate without the hard work. I want to be an astronomer without the hard work and the endless hours of grind being paid a pittance to gain experience!

If you fully understood how it could be with worker ownership you would realise that under capitalism workers have very little choice.

As above. Under capitalism the range of jobs provides a range of choice.

I disagree. Division of labour just makes production more efficient, it doesn't effect progress.

Yes it does. If I had to make the laptop I am using on my own, I fear my progress will be impaired. The division of labour allows for a multitude of people to contribute to the making of my laptop, from circuit board designers, designers, assemblers etc... Without specialisation you have stagnation where the only thing I can do is produce simple things.

If people were educated to help themselves with a craft, instead of being conditioned to except a system that is not in their best interest, then they could have at least a chance to help themselves.

I work in a healthcare profession. I can tell you that the many people I work with have educated themselves in a “craft”. They have taken ownership of their own destiny. The problem is with the small minority of people who hide behind excuses for inaction. The old “I cannot be bothered and everyone else is to blame”. These people take from society and give nothing in return. It is bugger all to do with capitalism, because these people exist in all societies. The only difference is that in some societies they would starve.

reply to post by paraphi

......without the hard work and the endless hours of grind being paid a pittance to gain experience!

I don't question that some jobs / careers etc will pay more than others but with the amount of wealth and resource in this country why should anyone be paid 'a pittance' for doing anything?

And perhaps you should ask why we as a society condone paying someone subsistence level wages?

If people were educated to help themselves with a craft, instead of being conditioned to except a system that is not in their best interest, then they could have at least a chance to help themselves.

Many people in less 'skilful' or 'professional' jobs are making the most of their own particular abilities - and society is no less dependant on them - our society will be equally less efficient if we don't have bricklayers and labourers to build houses as we would if we didn't have architects to design them.

I work in a healthcare profession. I can tell you that the many people I work with have educated themselves in a “craft”. They have taken ownership of their own destiny.

Yes, and they deserve an enormous amount of respect and credit for doing so - but that option is being increasingly denied to people from less affluent backgrounds - and some people simple don't have those sort of personal skill sets - does that make them less worthy if they are still hard working, conscientious contributors to society?

The problem is with the small minority of people who hide behind excuses for inaction.

Yes, it is a problem, and it needs addressing - but is it the biggest problem we face?

Unfortunately far too many people, from all sections of society, have an inbuilt inability to accept responsibility for their actions - our politicians are THE prime example of that.