Iran official: German firm planted bombs in parts meant for nuclear program

Originally posted by StareDad
I don´t think SIEMENS did it, I think the equipment has been manipulated on it´s way or it´s a lie.

While without the full details it does appear a tad bit provocative coupled with the fact that, the british had long ago used a similarly described device for espionage purposes, does lend to an instinctive desire in me to say this story is ridiculous on the face of it.

I have to ask why, why not seimens?

Seimens has a very long resume in the area of espionage. Seimens has a long colorful, some would say distasteful, history dating back to pre-wwii, there's no secrets there.

Originally posted by CALGARIAN


Wow!

Even more clever than Stuxnet, if you ask me. I bet this IS true and were paid off by Mossad, but we may never know for sure.

Also, I thought Germany voted with the UN resolutions sanctions, to prevent them from doing business with the Iranians. Even the video game company Blizzard had to shut down World Of Warcraft access for these users so surely NUCLEAR HARDWARE is illegal?

It says it was by a "third party", but they must have had a scheme all planned to be the "middle man" to make sure the malicious parts were obtained by Iranian scientists.

Either way. Wild. Who knows, maybe this happened in the past and worked?.. I'm sure only the news they want about these Nuclear Plants are what's released.

www.haaretz.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

What makes you think Mossad and Israel run the show? From my point of view, they are at the bottom of the totem pole. It would be in the best interest of Israel to make peace with its neighbours and it could offer incentives, but that would not sit well with the puppeteers of israel. The Rotschilds and the rest of the 0.1% who run the show sit in Europe and America, not Israel. Also there is still the possibility that the story is just made up.

Originally posted by neo96
Really is amazing the lack of critical thinking skills of people who never question anything Iranian leaders say.

The west is stealing their rain now Germans planted bombs, and the list goes on really the lengths that people go to defend Iran is stupifying,

Yet another thread playing the Iranian victim card.

I concur. You know, there are plenty of real conspiracies out there, with all of the questionable motives involved and all of the shady players on the monopoly board, including our own government and the ( now international ) military industrial complex, however, it is obvious that Iran is a genuine threat. My opinion is based on their own public statements, and the fact that they have been caught with their hands in the terrorist-cookie jar many times over. They have worked very hard to stoke up the violence in their region, and please take note that they supplied explosives and other support for insurgents that killed our troops in Iraq. ( In all fairness, I think we had no business being in Iraq, but nonetheless, they have been killing our troops by proxy ).

Iran has supported terrorists that attack Israel. ( Think Hamas & Hezbollah ).

I have no doubt that if Iran is able to produce their own nuclear material, that "Western Interests" and Israel will suffer nuclear attacks forthwith. Again- I have no doubt.
Most of you around here aren't even old enough to remember our embassy hostage crisis in Iran, but I am. Based on that alone, I feel that Iran is fricking lucky that we even acknowledge them at all, much less that we haven't pounded them into the dust. ( And don't forget Ronald Reagan and his role in the October Surprise, and good ol' Oliver North and his handler George Herbert Walker Bush )....anyway, I digress......

I say this: If Iran wants nuclear power, I think we should give it to them...in the form of a few well-placed tactical nukes.

reply to post by neo96


But didn't you hear? Iran is a victim. Iran is a victim of it's own regime. Much like the rest of the world's governments victimize and mislead it's population. Just saying

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I'm not challenging the general ideas here. It's the details and gravity of it all that I think the media happily encourages ignorance on and political leadership just pretends doesn't exist.

Oh, of course. The media considers the full ramifications of an Israeli attack on Iran. They allude to what would happen, that Iran would close the strait of Hormuz and the US, Britain and a coalition of other countries would intervene, but the ripple affect at home, what that would do to our own economy, how our standard of living and our overall reality would dramatically change. For obvious reasons, they don't talk about that. People would be more frightened than they are; besides, what good is terrifying information to a populous that doesn't know how to make heads or tails of it???

As I see it, I agree that we are in agreement. Iran is a threat to Israel's existence. You have to be completely brain dead not to see this. Thus, it would immoral to tie Israels hands, to say they can't respond. Iran, to their credit, are completely milking this anti-zionist stance in the west to their credit. If Israel DOES attack, that'll only mean bad for Israel; if not militarily, then politically, everyone will put the blame on Israel for Iran's blocking the strait of Hormuz and educing the collapse in the global economy.

This is a truly dire situation. Any reasonable person has to weigh the pros and cons. To not act is to deny the real threat Iran poses to Israel. To act means to embark on a long and dangerous war.

These are real people down there...real people with with lives and real hopes and dreams of their own. They die only if the West decides preemptive war must happen.

They should blame their own government. This scenario reminds me exactly of the attitude Germans had in the years preceding WWII. The Nazis had subjected them to such a rigorous and repetitive program of conditioning that they were all mostly of the belief that the world was against Germany; that the "Jews" and their international agents capitalism and communism were the reasons for the war; that the Jews started the war. In hindsight, we see how absurdly crazy these claims were, how they were in fact a gross mockery of the actual fact that it was the Germans who began the war, who sought the war, who forced the hand of Britain, America and Russia against it.

The same situation currently exists with Iran. They have done far too much, have promoted and admitted to seeking the demise of the Jewish state, actively fund Hezbollah and Hamas, frequently promote antisemitism in their media, and prep their population to accept the inevitability of a future great war.

Iran is seeking this war. It's policy of non-compliance with the IAEA, it's secretiveness, it's destroying and building of other facilities, all leads to the natural suspicion that they are up to something. In Israels eyes, the threat is all too real, and the consequences cataclysmic.

* Tehran Nuclear Research Facility (Exposed) 11.5 Million people in close proximity. It's a northern suburb of Tehran. They have 1 known reactor in the 5 megawatt range using Highly Enriched Uranium fuel. Stats show it's been running since 1993.

Are there any other people, popular commentators, concerned about the issue of fallout?

I don't know what the answer IS though...except that I don't think they are even making nuclear weapons and if I'm wrong, the US and Israel...Saudi and UAE..and the others, better be 150% sure this time. 110% RIGHT.

I can understand your desire for them not to be interested in building nuclear weapons, because if they aren't, there's no need to begin a major regional war. But all the facts point unmistakably to the seriousness of Iran's nuclear ambitions.

We cannot exclude context. The context of the issue is very worrisome for westerners. Look and understand the regime; learn something about the Shi'ite Islam, the portents of the coming of their 12th imam, the fanaticism of the government, their denial of human rights, etc, and you're led to the undeniable fact that these people must be opposed. To give them the power of Nuclear weapons is to equip their ideology and worldview with that much more power.

It's frightening. It's horrible. I hate that this situation exists, but it does, and it cannot be avoided.

I'm reminded of those residents of the warsaw ghetto who were forced to come to the conclusion that no good would come from their just passively awaiting a 'positive end'; the fighters recognized that to entertain hopes of survival against a German opposition that sought their complete extermination, was mind numbingly naive; so they did what any self respecting human would do. If I'm going to die, I'm going to die with dignity, in fighting for myself, and for what I believe is right.

The Islamists in Iran intend to use the power of a nuclear weapon in ways detrimental to the non-Islamic world. Most of all, their very religion expects the Imam Mahdi to arrive in a situation of political chaos. If they can't incite it, they will create it themselves.

reply to post by dontreally

It's refreshing to debate in some depth and while we do agree on much, it's not quite everything. First, I think the debate up to this point is largely missing what has driven this war for hundreds of years and WELL before Israel formed itself into a state.

Shia Vs. Sunni...and Specific Sects within that. It's not a minor or passing issue....it's the very heart of the issue among the people over there. It some long chatting with a great woman from Bahrain..and probably back there now..that had been on ATS for awhile to understand HOW dire and central the Divide within Islam is to everything, and I mean everything, we see happening. Here is a chart with the breakdown of Shia and by country as well as dominant sect.

How many Shia are there in the world?

Of 1.48 BILLION Muslims, that says less than 11% are Shia. The 'Homeland', such as one exists for Shia, is Iran, followed closely by the population in Southern Iraq and then the site there breaks down across the whole region and greater world. That part of this war started before America existed and is almost over. I don't think Americans have even realized what we've been used to accomplish and have almost helped complete on this score.

_____________________________

On Nuclear Energy... Of Course Iran is making nuclear material and on a near unprecedented scale. That alone should be the tip-off and when production capacity catches up to the end of the assembly line with a full line behind it, they'll have material coming at such a steady flow as to make bombs at a rate not seen since the Soviets and Americans of the 50's.

- OR -

What I think they are doing and it's a dangerous bluff to achieve is positioning themselves to be to Nuclear Energy what they've been to Oil.

I think they watched VERY VERY carefully as Russia made their Bushehr Reactor Complex with state of the art technology. I think they made notes and plans and got downright busy about setting themselves up to be the builders in the future, not the one's having it built. They'll even have enough high grade virgin fuel "packages" with more coming, to mass produce entire reactor 'kits' to build anywhere they want, around the world.

Iran HAS outright said ...as have others...they seek to assist African nations and some South American ones with the development of Nuclear Power Plants. Consider, before Fukushima, Nuclear power was the cat's meow for future energy outside the 'green' concepts. If Fukushima can avoid being repeated and fade with time and memory, TPTB can still make Nuke power the main thing. Japan itself is going back on the No Nukes idea already....so Iran has a brilliant idea here, if we DO take them at their word.

It's also NO less dangerous or critical to stop for the Western Powers. Nuke power is Free Power if done in certain ways. No billion dollar dam projects for the IMF to strangle 3rd world countrys with debt for into decades. No Oil contracts to or from or strategic leverage from them regardless....and no boot to the neck of developing nations for how quick or what direction they develop. Near unlimited electricity by high yield nuke plants in rural nations would redefine world development....and precisely what Iran has in mind, IMO.

Only time will tell who is entirely correct for this aspect.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Shia Vs. Sunni...and Specific Sects within that. It's not a minor or passing issue....it's the very heart of the issue among the people over there.

That's very true. I wouldn't say it's the only issue on the horizon, as conversion and success against the 'non-muslims' is also an important target of theirs.

Interestingly, and as you rightly chose to emphasize, internecine Muslims conflict is ANOTHER one of the portents predicted by the Hadith indicating the end of days Portents reported by the Hadith. In addition to this "sign", there are other signs currently apart of our geopolitical reality: There will be a great conflict in the land of Syria, until it is destroyed. And, 'Death and fear will afflict the people of Baghdad and Iraq. A fire will appear in the sky and a redness will cover them.'...

How can anyone read this and not imagine how the Shi'ites in Iran actually foresee in these events a confirmation of their religious beliefs? And how do you expect Israel to ignore this??

Far too often, people who comment here know "all there is to know" about the "NWO" and the "Illuminati" and "Zionists" but barely nothing about Islam, and the history of the orient, and the stark differences in metaphysical and cultural outlook between the west and the Islamic world. While I agree there is some higher agenda preoccupying the European and American elites, that doesn't nullify the existence of the threat of Islamism to non-Muslims; it only means we have both internal and external issues; the enemies of liberal democratic nation states and Islamists both agree that things should change, even though they dramatically disagree on the system that will replace it. So, it appears the radical left enables Islamism for it's own purposes. Many commentators think the west is crazy for doing this; but, they are arrogant and conceited enough in their 'abilities' and superior knowledge to manipulate Islam for its own designs.

The situation is exceedingly complicated. I don't usually mention the aspect of the west because it detracts from the immediate problem: Iran, and the threat it poses to Israel. I don't know, ultimately, what the intentions of the US and European establishment is. I do know that there are major financial interests, as well as a pressing need to continue occupying the Arab world (and as we've seen, the idea of a 'democratic' Egypt was nothing but a ridiculous pipe dream of naive liberals; I'm not saying moderates don't exist there, I'm merely saying they are not large enough to do battle with the Islamists).

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if their end game involves the complete 'eradication' of 2/3rds of the worlds population, the majority being Muslims, Christians, Jews and other's who would interfere with the establishment of a universality society. Can you see Muslims ever giving in? Or Orthodox Jews? Or Orthodox Christians?? No. So why not engineer a world war to eliminate these undesirable elements to prepare the way for the 'one world' government with one universal religion etc.

I'm not saying this will happen, but I fear this is being planned. In my opinion, there needs to be more democracy in the region; Orthodox religious views should make way to more mature views which enables the existence of other religions; Judaism, Christianity and Islam can be made compatible with the requirements of liberal democracy, and it in way would impair the essence of these religions. I'm not advocating for a 'liberalization of these religions' but they do need to be moderated; ideas like the imam mahdi that will "convert the whole world", the "antichrist", Christs second coming, Moshiach, in my opinion NEED to be interpreted metaphorically as a spirit of consciousness, as opposed to an actual incarnation of a particular individual in human reality, in order for these religions to come to an awareness of peaceful coexistence.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Near unlimited electricity by high yield nuke plants in rural nations would redefine world development....and precisely what Iran has in mind, IMO.

Shouldn't the world be seeking safer energy alternatives?? Isn't that important? What about solar? Wind? Ocean?

Only time will tell who is entirely correct for this aspect.

Ultimately, Iran is based on a radical Shi'ite doctrine which anticipates certain things to happen in the immediate future: one of them, as Ayatollah Khomeini commented before, is to 'prepare the way' for the Imam Mahdi: this is what most religious shi'ites believe the Iranian revolution was all about.

Second, Iran has a MASSIVE military, has been earmarking more and more money to developing their defense industry. What for? Why do all this if not in preparation for a future war?

Originally posted by dontreally

Second, Iran has a MASSIVE military, has been earmarking more and more money to developing their defense industry. What for? Why do all this if not in preparation for a future war?

Probably because they have the largest Armada of warships gathered in peacetime parked on their doorstep.

Two Nuclear nations breathing down their necks, One of whom has been calling for a war with them for the past 30 years.

And you think they should have spent their money on Balloons and Fruitbaskets?

reply to post by Tw0Sides

One of whom has been calling for a war with them for the past 30 years.

You are totally insane. Get help.

You ignore the whole friggen context of Iran's Islamic radicalism, it's hatred of the WEST - not simply because we are 'exploiters' but our CULTURE, our IDEOLOGY, and your half brained defense of them always resorts to the most inexplicable nonnsense of Israel threatening THEM, as if Israel were in any existential position to just go about threatening neighboring nations.

It's them. Israel received oil from Iran before the '79 revolution. They were on decent terms. But once the Islamists took over, threats began. It has ALWAYS been FROM Iran towards Israel. Anything interpreted by you as a 'threat' is merely letting the aggressor know that you will defend yourself.

Originally posted by dontreally
, as if Israel were in any existential position to just go about threatening neighboring nations.

Samson Option

A Nuke for Every Major City in Europe.

Now who has that Policy, Israel , or Iran.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by dontreally
, as if Israel were in any existential position to just go about threatening neighboring nations.

Samson Option

A Nuke for Every Major City in Europe.

Now who has that Policy, Israel , or Iran.

Bingo we have an answer to the whole she-bang

It certainly does not bring happy feelings to light.

Regards, Iwinder

Iran is likely buying on the black market and that means Mossad or the CIA can set up as a black market seller and do anything they want to the parts.
the best part Is iran is likely paying for the problems they are having.

Once Iran gets burned a few time they will be afraid to buy from anyone.

Originally posted by BaneOfQuo
I know this could be the alcohol talking but, I would rather see the attempts continue to possibly delay Irans nuclear program to prevent a full scale conflict with far more casualties, on both sides!

I think we may be at a point where no one wants war, except Israel perhaps, so to bandage the situation and prevent a full scale assault the reliance on these secretive bomb attempts makes sense.


On the other hand, as I finish my beer, are acts like this defined a terrorism?

edit on 22-9-2012 by BaneOfQuo because: (no reason given)

Its only terrorism when it happens to the US,one of its allies, or interests. Business as usual.

Just like we have legal theft occurring daily in the banking sector daily. Sure some may not break rule. The problem is they bend the rules or flat out buy out the people's representatives to create the "laws" for their benefit.

There is no way people pass some of these stupid laws you know someone can, and will, take advantage of to make an extra buck.

reply to post by Tw0Sides


First, you would have to accept the allegations of Seymour Hersch. What he claims is ultimately immaterial.

Second, if you were to accept his claims, wouldn't you first subject it to critical analysis? Why would Israel do that? For self protection? Ok. If that's the logic you're going with, than it is equally plausible that Great Britain, America, Russia, China, France, India and Pakistan would do that. They too 'could' have 'options' which see's every major city on earth as a potential target.

reply to post by dontreally


First, let me say I agree with your first reply entirely too closely to itemize any points outside a couple minor ones and they aren't really disagreement as much as adding to the conversation. First, i do appreciate the very different mindsets as they exist in the Asian and Middle Eastern nations. In some ways their thinking is too foreign to ever find common mental ground on for real understanding. I suspect to the devout and/or deeply ethnic in those regions, the same is true in reverse for America. We must be just as Alien and unwelcome more than occasionally.

Adding one other point...the combined total to add up to 2/3rds of the world population, as the figure comes up in multiple places, is rather uncomfortably close to being exactly what you suggest. Get rid of all the Muslims, Christians and the small number of Jews to round out the stats...and damned if you're not just about right on that numerical line.

Major World Religions by the numbers

On your second post...

Shouldn't the world be seeking safer energy alternatives?? Isn't that important? What about solar? Wind? Ocean?

Yes, we absolutely should. Prior to Fukushima, I was very much a part of the pro-nuclear power crowd. With new 'cold state' fail safe designs like the Pebble Bed technology that gets clear away from the convention reactor design entirely, there was real hope for long term conversion to the ultimate in Nature's own fuel source. If only we could have gotten over that threshold before the old technology made a total 5 alarm nightmare of the entire concept.

I think it would be a mistake to assume Iran sees the world in the same harsh terms of before/after Fukushima for nuke power though. People have asked for years...along with my own voice in the mix...Why does a nation filthy rich in oil and natural gas reserves need nuclear power? Well, because they aren't just going to use it....I believe they intend to corner the market outright....to bring a bit more clarity to what I was saying earlier. Something like Fuku wouldn't slow their plans down when, again, even Japan is turning Nuke plants back on and seemingly going back on the whole idea of leaving the technology in the long term.

Second, Iran has a MASSIVE military, has been earmarking more and more money to developing their defense industry. What for? Why do all this if not in preparation for a future war?

On the first point, I tend to agree the Shia are looking at their own end times prophecy for this period of time and events. Don't look now though, but I've been unpleasantly shocked to find just how close events are following the Biblical lines of prophecy as well. After all, as you probably know quite well, Islam and Christianity have as much in common in overlapping core names, places and events as they have different. It's no wonder, given the procession of events from the 1940's onward.....people there might be thinking the picture is looking a bit too much like we were told to expect it might.


Why would they have a rather obsessive need to build a military? Well, Reagan made his deals to get the hostages out and then he went back and double dipped for a side deal back to the Contra Rebels of the time. One step too far....with a nation he openly despised and had no use for either way. I think the way the 1980's went down sealed the deal for Iran's mind in knowing this day WOULD come eventually. Some day, the West would push things to war and push Iran out of what they got in 1979 and their revolution.

I don't sympathize with them....How can I? I'm not even Christian to have the meager defense of being 'Of the Book' to a Jihadi who wants me dead. I'd an outright heathen and infidel as a Wiccan. I do, however, try and understand their position for better or for worse...and it does make sense. At least as it seems to be to their mindset.

Their military is BIG.. Yes...but big in ways just as specific as ours is. The United States Military is almost entirely about projection and the ability to fight across Ocean(s) and NOT here. The whole point is, never here. right? Iran has built almost their entire military on a Defensive position and one with enough teeth from that posture to make war against them INSANELY costly to the attacking nation.

We may win this......but we'll wish we hadn't by the end, is my guess.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

After all, as you probably know quite well, Islam and Christianity have as much in common in overlapping core names, places and events as they have different. It's no wonder, given the procession of events from the 1940's onward.....people there might be thinking the picture is looking a bit too much like we were told to expect it might.

Yes

The Orthodox Jews in Israel also see in the current scenario proof that were living in the end time. What's especially coincidental is the claim in the Zohar, an ancient Jewish mystical text, that see's Paras - or Persia - as the party who will threaten the Jews at the end of time. Coincidence?! It's hard to believe how this is. I know many non-religious or secular Jews who look at this and are left completely dumbfounded. It is a ridiculous fact, yet it was predicted at the latest, 900 + years ago.

What is one to make of that? So it seems on one side, religious predictions are being met; on the other, predictions are being met. And as for the Christians, it takes very little for them to be riled up, although I believe there are some interesting predictions made by Saint Malachi in the Catholic church that see's the period were living in as the end time; the "last pope" Petrus Romanus - Peter the Pope, is destined to be pope right after Benedict dies, and then its "finis" - no more popes. That again means: We really ARE living in the end, at least, in the end of 'this' world that we've been living in. And that this meeting up of religious predictions probably runs a bit deeper than were accustomed to thinking.

In any case, it's scary.

I'd an outright heathen and infidel as a Wiccan

You're a Wiccan?

Their military is BIG.. Yes...but big in ways just as specific as ours is.

I was referring specifically to their reserve force, which purportedly is around 10 million strong.

The United States Military is almost entirely about projection and the ability to fight across Ocean(s) and NOT here. The whole point is, never here. right?

As I've written already, Iran doesn't need to bring a standing military over here. All they need do - and probably have already done - is plant agents inside this country. Once a war begins, watch suicide bombings increase in our major cities. I would not be in the least surprised.

Iran has built almost their entire military on a Defensive position and one with enough teeth from that posture to make war against them INSANELY costly to the attacking nation.

I started a thread to discuss how the mentality of Islam would make any war with the west tremendously costly. I mean, they would throw millions of people at them. Which could mean the US and it's allies could see a million + dead. And this ignores the unnerving prospect of Russia or China getting involved.

This might not be relevant to the discussion but i think the most important aspect of any religion is the desire for the settlement of justice in the world...Justice means that governments,corporations,banks,etc,etc,are not going to be able to operate the way they have been all the times,and that is not something they are comfortable with at all....In a real just society there are no multi billionaires. People can not get insanely rich overnight and governments can not treat people and the planet the way they please anymore.Banking systems have to completely change as well...The elites obviously don't like that idea at all,and they do anything in their power to prevent that from happening.But it is not going to be easy.Every body even non religious people are demanding justice these days....I am not a religious person nor am i a socialist,but i like the way this thing gets into the %1's nerves.maybe it will make them sober up and have a different set of mind for a change,for their own sake.

Originally posted by neo96
Really is amazing the lack of critical thinking skills of people who never question anything Iranian leaders say.

The west is stealing their rain now Germans planted bombs, and the list goes on really the lengths that people go to defend Iran is stupifying,

Yet another thread playing the Iranian victim card.

I don't think anyone is trying to defend Iran. And even if they were, does that make industrial sabotage impossible?

Sabotage is a recognized tactic in warfare. The US, Germany, the UK and Russia have all been extremely devious in the past when it comes to attacking an enemy in unique ways, and IMO, sabotage of the infrastructure an enemy needs is an obvious way to undermine their efforts.

I don't particularly believe this, but then I don't particularly believe anything any government says about anything at all. But I can't refuse the probability that Iran's enemies would do this, it makes sense that they would try to.