Questions Regarding Magnetic Field

I'm going to be attempting to manipulate metal (bend it/move it) using the magnetic field/magnetism.

Problem is, I don't know where to start. I have the resources to get whatever is needed (money isn't a problem).That's where you guys come in. I'm far from new to science, but I am new to complicated science.

Now lets pretend for a second (Ignoring my opening sentence) that I have no knowledge about magnetism or the magnetic field (I basically don't). How would I go about doing this?

Does the size of the magnet matter?
Does the electric current; how strong it is matter?
Can it be done only with a magnet?
Is a magnet needed in the first place?
Does the size of the magnet depend on its strength?
Can the current be manipulated?
Do electric bells use this principle?
Difference between electric current and field?

Some of these I am researching right now. I'm going to try to answer most of them, but if someone would make it a little easier I'd appreciate it.

I know huge electromagnets lift cars, I also know magnets are used for everything from credit cards to maglevs.So, can anyone help a brother out?

You'll get the strongest field with an electromagnet. It should have an iron core, and as many coil turns as possible. There's also high voltage AC involved, so be careful.

You should go read a book on magnetism before you start spending money!

I say this because of your questions.

Since choosing magnet specifications is a complicated matter you should really provide more detail about the application. Otherwise we would be expending a lot of time and energy providing advice that is not related to your needs and you would be spending a lot of time, energy and resources on building stuff that would be inappropriate/inadequate for the task that you have in mind.

This is coming from someone who has been designing electronic and electromechanical equipment all their life and is well aware of how difficult it can be to meet requirements for a new application.

reply to post by dainoyfb


I'm basically looking for a way to build some type of magnet that will be able to bend metals at a distance or close range without actually coming in contact with the metal itself.

reply to post by VoidHawk


Doing that as we speak. I like to do things as I go.

reply to post by Vandettas


What type of metal? How big, what shape? What power supply will be available? How big can this system be? What range is required? How much bending is required? How accurate does it need to be? Will your budget be limited to regular off the shelf components or can you afford custom, exotic components like superconductors and precision machined specialty alloys?

Without basic details like this, no one will be able to help you. It would be easiest of course, if you just explained what you are trying to do.

Originally posted by XeroOne
You'll get the strongest field with an electromagnet. It should have an iron core, and as many coil turns as possible. There's also high voltage AC involved, so be careful.

edit on 2-8-2012 by XeroOne because: (no reason given)

Wouldn't you want DC for a power supply instead of AC?

By the way, bending metal into different shapes with magnetism is not a really common practice because it is not very efficient. In other words it generally takes such large and powerful equipment that it is just much easier to do it another way. Be prepared for a surprise when you find out how much power it takes to do a little work with magnets.

reply to post by beezzer


Generally, yup. I wasn't going to debate that when I saw it because AC is occasionally used when de-gausing of the magnet core is required, some vey inefficient solenoids and for some other very specialized applications. Also, if you want to get into semantics AC motors too. But you are right. In almost all cases DC is used to power electromagnets.

Originally posted by dainoyfb
reply to post by Vandettas

 

What type of metal? How big, what shape? What power supply will be available? How big can this system be? What range is required? How much bending is required? How accurate does it need to be? Will your budget be limited to regular off the shelf components or can you afford custom, exotic components like superconductors and precision machined specialty alloys?

Type? The metal type doesn't matter to me.
Shape/Size? Small enough for me to hold.
Power? Not sure if you are asking me. If you are, whatever I buy will be whats available.
Range? Close range or a distance, doesn't matter.
How much bending? Just enough for it to be visible.
Accurate? Very. I'll settle for something lesser though.
Budget? Doesn't matter if its $10 or $10,000.

Without basic details like this, no one will be able to help you. It would be easiest of course, if you just explained what you are trying to do.

I don't really know how to explain. Most accurate way I could explain is this : You ever seen the movie with the mutants? I forgot the name, but anyway, theres some guy who can bend metal with his mind. Obviously thats impossible, but thats not what I want. I want an effect similar to that.

Originally posted by Vandettas

Originally posted by dainoyfb
reply to post by Vandettas

 

What type of metal? How big, what shape? What power supply will be available? How big can this system be? What range is required? How much bending is required? How accurate does it need to be? Will your budget be limited to regular off the shelf components or can you afford custom, exotic components like superconductors and precision machined specialty alloys?

Type? The metal type doesn't matter to me.
Shape/Size? Small enough for me to hold.
Power? Not sure if you are asking me. If you are, whatever I buy will be whats available.
Range? Close range or a distance, doesn't matter.
How much bending? Just enough for it to be visible.
Accurate? Very. I'll settle for something lesser though.
Budget? Doesn't matter if its $10 or $10,000.

Without basic details like this, no one will be able to help you. It would be easiest of course, if you just explained what you are trying to do.

I don't really know how to explain. Most accurate way I could explain is this : You ever seen the movie with the mutants? I forgot the name, but anyway, theres some guy who can bend metal with his mind. Obviously thats impossible, but thats not what I want. I want an effect similar to that.

Hmmm, I'm sure at the OP I read something about you being familure with SCIENCE. If that were true then you would know that specifications like "close" and "whatever I can buy" and "very" are not particularly practical.

I'm going to make the assumption that you want to do a magical illusion. And from that I surmise that you need something small enough that you can fit under a table, so buying a surplus diesel locomotive engine for a power supply isn't going to work. Also I hope this is something you can put under a table because unless the item you want to bend is as thin as paper, the electromagnet isn't going to fit under your sleeve. Also be aware that electromagnetic fields drop of rapidly with distance so bending something over an inch or two away from the magnet will take you to a whole new level of engineering that you probably won't achieve as a hobbyist.

If this is what you are after then I can easily give advice.

Have you planned on how you are going to hold the metal still at one end while the magnet pulls at it at the other end with enough force to bend it?

reply to post by dainoyfb


Not familiar with complicated science. I could tell you about the Big Bang, atomic structure of subatomic particles,
and gravity. But I can't show you the math of how they work. Thats an entire different conversation though.

Planning to hold it until I can see a visible change.

Again, the distance isn't really a issue for me. Close, mid-range, or long-range; doesn't matter as long as I can get the desired effect, which is the metal bending.

Well, you can not bend a 1" thick rod thats 1" long with anything less then a powerplant. If the 1" thick rod is 1Km long, you can bend it with 100watts.

So in my opinion, get something long and thin, maybe a slim saw blade or the inner part of a bike cable and a 1000 watt electromagnet. Get a microwave oven transformer and cut off the secondary and part of the core so its shape looks like an E. It will bend the metal if its thin and long enough.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by XeroOne
You'll get the strongest field with an electromagnet. It should have an iron core, and as many coil turns as possible. There's also high voltage AC involved, so be careful.

edit on 2-8-2012 by XeroOne because: (no reason given)

Wouldn't you want DC for a power supply instead of AC?

Sorry, I was thinking of transformers. Having said that, it might be cheaper to pull one of the coils from a large transformer and use that as the electromagnet.

Edited to add: XL5 has already suggested that, although you shouldn't have to reshape the core itself. You're also looking for something much larger and more powerful than a microwave transformer, though. Think more along the lines of a 6KV water heater transformer, or the kind you might come across in a scrap yard if you're lucky.

Why do you want to bend a piece of metal with a magnet?

If we know your purpose it will be easier to help.

And roughly how big a piece of metal do you want to bend?

The magnet is just going to be the start of this. If the system has to be quiet, sans a gigantic humming noise, it will require a very powerful, flattened power supply. This will be one of the more expensive components.

Also, the field strength will require automated, real time control via a microcontroller, through a proximity sensor located at the head of the magnet. Especially if you are expecting to be holding the object. This is because a magnetic field increases so rapidly with proximity that without fast, real time control of the field strength, the object will be impossible to hold onto without snapping against the magnet head and staying there until the magnet is turned off. Also, without real time automatic control, when the metal object starts to bend it will accelerate and snap against the magnet head. You will have to implement something like an optical reflection based proximity sensor for fast response and linear control of the power supply, yikes!

reply to post by dainoyfb


I will keep all this in mind, at the same time describing it to someone that I could buy this type of stuff from.