Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

Here's an interesting debate i found on youtube with christian jewish apologist Dr. Michael Brown. It's an interesting discussion i thought i'd share for people who care and are interested. For people who don't? You know where the exit sign is. I'll start with an analogy, for nonbiblical scholars who have never bothered to read the Holy Bible, this is a way to allow those who do not understand who Yeshua is, to begin to see him and how wonderful he is.

Read Isaiah 43 and 59 if you want to understand who God is. Yeshua is his "right arm". Here's an analogy. I take some toys and have thrown them into the bottom of a kiddie pool, but some kids want me to retrieve them, so i stick my arm in there. Below the surface of the water it's my arm seperated from the rest of my dry (seemingly "heavenly") body. It appears that my arm is seperate looking up from under the water to the surface, i can see what is above the surface of the water but what i see isn't crystal clear, to a fish the rest of my body would probably be nonexistant, all it would be able to see is what is right there for it to see. I am grabbing the toys, not my arm. Its my arm but I am the one grabbing them, just me, just one.

This is who the Savior is. He is Father and he is Son. Not a son as we know sons to be, he was "begotten" into this world, but who he is came from of old, from eternity.

John 14:7-9

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Isaiah 45:14-22 is also a pertinent key to this Savior-God.

Isaiah 45: 22-23

22 “Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.

Who comes saying the same verse as Isaiah 45:22-23.

Philipians 2:9-11

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[the name that is above all names is God's name]

So with these thoughts i bid you all goodnight, and enjoy the video.

To me, jesus was a human being that was enlightened far beyond the average human being. His knowledge brought him closer to god than everyone else. To say he WAS god is false, but to say he was the son of god is true, just as we are all the children of god. Knowledge is what carries you closer to the truth, ignorance is what keeps you far far away.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


i dont think jesus is god... he might have a big part of god within him, which makes him so enlightened...
but i think he was made by god, so therefore he could not be god..

i mean everything was made by god, but anything that was made by god, could not be god..... is that agreeable?




also.. i think he could have been one of the first souls created by god, which would be why he is called the son of god, because he was the first created son of god.... but that is just a theory i thought of just now

Apologies, something's acting up.

Some people are born with the ability to be enormously muscular. Some people are born with genes that keep them thin for their entire lives. Some people are born with yada yada yada... Jesus was an anomaly, a savant, a 1 in a bajillion occurance.. but he was not god. He was simply born with a gift that others do not possess. It is not impossible for others to posses it, but only he had what he had, and to this day nobody has been able to replicate that inherent connection that he did.

He shared his knowledge through is actions and following his heart, aka the truth, and his reason for living was to touch the lives of others so they may also find peace of mind and assurance of a god themselves. Can others also feel that they may be here to help others? I can say i am happy with my life, to the point of not being 'needy', but to do what jesus did and die for what he believed in, that is another story and that takes next to pure courage and heart to pull off.

EDIT: But i think that is the age we are entering as humanity. The ability to follow our hearts and our beliefs that flow out of love itself, and would be willing to die before we picked up a gun and killed someone that is unable to see the truth themselves. It is within the capacity to forgive others for not being able to see truth... after all we are living in a society that is manipulated by people who want to control, control, control.

[Part 1]:

Isaiah 55:8-9
8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.


Proverbs 3:5-7
5) Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6) In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths.

7) Be not wise in thine own eyes:
fear the Lord, and depart from evil.


[Part 2]:

1 John 4:1-3
1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of
antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2 John 1:7
7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Genesis 1:26
26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


John 1:1-16
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2) The same was in the beginning with God.

3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15) John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.


Isaiah 9:6
6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Philippians 2:5-11
5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Hebrews 1:1-14
1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


Hebrews 2:9-18
9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13) And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Hebrews 3:6-11
6) But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

7) Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8) Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9) When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10) Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11) So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)


1 Timothy 3:16
16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Isaiah 48:11-12
11) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it:
for how should my name be polluted?
and I will not give my glory unto another.

12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called;
I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.


Revelation 22:13
13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


Revelation 1:8-11
8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


Isaiah 43:11-15
11) I, even I, am the Lord;
and beside me there is no saviour.

12) I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed,
when there was no strange god among you:
therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

13) Yea, before the day was I am he;
and there is none that can deliver out of my hand:
I will work, and who shall let it?

14) Thus saith the Lord, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

15) I am the Lord, your Holy One,
the creator of Israel, your King.


John 18:4-6
4) Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

5) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6) As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.


Isaiah 44:6
6) Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel,
and his redeemer the Lord of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last;
and beside me there is no God.


Isaiah 63:8
8) For he said, Surely they are my people,
children that will not lie:
so he was their Saviour.


John 8:23-24
23) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Luke 9:18-22
18) And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

19) They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

20) He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

21) And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

22) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.


Ephesians 4:9-10
9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Colossians 2:8-9
8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


James 3:9
9) Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.


John 13:3
3) Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;


John 13:31-32
31) Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

32) If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.


John 16:27-28
27) For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.


John 17:5
5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:17
17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


John 8:32-36
32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Acts 17:23-31
23)For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24) God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25) Neither is worshiped with men 's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26) And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28) For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29) Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man 's device.

30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (KJV)


John 14:16-18
16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


1 John 5:7-8
7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Here's what Saint Augustine had to say about it...

The Father is God ( 1 Cor 8:6, etc.)
Jesus is God ( John 1:1, etc.)
The Holy Spirit is God ( 1 Cor 6:19, etc.)
Jesus is not the Father ( John 1:1, Luke 3:21-22, etc.)
Jesus is not the Spirit ( Luke 3:21-22, etc.)
The Father is not the Spirit ( Luke 3:21-22) )
There is only one God ( Rom 3:30, etc.)

The Doctrine of the Trinity was created for the simple reason that the early Church Fathers needed to address the fact that, from the first, Christians worshipped Christ as God. As Christianity is just a Jewish sect, it would need to adhere to the monotheistic basis of Judaism. In addition, if Jesus was just "some guy", even a "really, really good guy", how would his sacrifice save everyone?

Clearly, to the early theologians, Jesus was more than human. What's left? An angel? That would conflict with the Gospel of John directly, as well as the rest of the New Testament, indirectly.

And, thus, the Doctrine of the Trinity. If you don't get it (not referring to you, lonewolf, just anyone who reads this,) that's okay, because it is a deep philosophical concept, and understanding it is completely unnecessary for salvation. But it is an interesting avenue to explore.

(Reference: Augustine's "On the Trinity")

reply to post by adjensen


Theologens think he was more than human, but does that mean simply because he affected history in the way he did it can qualify him to that standard? What about other figures in history who served prominent roles just as jesus did? Does that make them inhuman also?

I believe people who are in tune with their souls have an inherent gift from god. They can see their reason for existence and they act on it with godly strength, literally.. since they realize their path was forged by god they find strength in that fact. People who lack the abilities to follow their heart either were not born with the inherent gift of realizing who they truly are... or they are victims of the system that seeks to control every aspect of their lives, which is not their fault. The folks who give up hope, well that is their fault.

To the OP. You know what annoys me? People who don't even hear God, pretending as if they know Him. There are always people to address their opinions about God, but that same "God" they speak, they never have experienced. Which is why we need the Holy Ghost. Don't speak about God as if ye know Him, but you bare NONE of the signs of being His child.

Well without "quoting" from the book of fairy tails, I would have to say neither one exists due to the fact that I have never seen either one of them...


You would think that a "god" with omnipresent powers would be able to stop by for a chat every once and and a while right?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Dear lonewolf1979,

If I clone myself, is it me or is it my son? If I am born identical twins, is it me or my brother? Do you differentiate based on the physical or the spiritual? What is the difference between me and anyone else?

Originally posted by chadderson
reply to post by adjensen

 

Theologens think he was more than human, but does that mean simply because he affected history in the way he did it can qualify him to that standard?

Theologians? No. There are very specific reasons that Christian theologians cite for the divinity of Christ, and notability is not one of them.

What about other figures in history who served prominent roles just as jesus did? Does that make them inhuman also?

No, divinity, in the sense that it is applied to Christ, is inherent in the being, it is not an "after the fact" attribute that is granted for good behaviour.

If that is your belief, I would direct you to the Church of Latter Day Saints, who believe that a variety of good works will grant divinity to a devout Mormon (white male, with a family -- no, I guess they changed that a few years ago, lol.)

Originally posted by mileysubet
You would think that a "god" with omnipresent powers would be able to stop by for a chat every once and and a while right?

I would think that someone who thought it all to be "fairy tales" would find better uses for their time then trolling forum threads

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by mileysubet
You would think that a "god" with omnipresent powers would be able to stop by for a chat every once and and a while right?

I would think that someone who thought it all to be "fairy tales" would find better uses for their time then trolling forum threads

If my opinion is considered "trolling" then so be it. No skin off my back, but what ever man, keep on keeping on.

But here in reality, why would a omnipresent god not be able to "speak" directly to its "subjects", does this not raise a red flag to you? 2000 years and no one has seen this so called god? why would it do that? to what purpose?

It really makes no sense what so ever.

Originally posted by scmoG
To the OP. You know what annoys me? People who don't even hear God, pretending as if they know Him. There are always people to address their opinions about God, but that same "God" they speak, they never have experienced. Which is why we need the Holy Ghost. Don't speak about God as if ye know Him, but you bare NONE of the signs of being His child.

And who are you to judge me? You have just condemned yourself. Judge not, lest ye be judged for the measure you judge others with shall be the measure used to judge you.

I speak from biblical references with scripture to back up my claim. I did not come to the table empty handed making bold claims with no scripture. Perhaps it is then, that it is you who do not bear the signs of being his child, to lash out and attack someone without cause presenting a case from biblical perspective, throwing around insults because i do not see things your way.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Dear lonewolf1979,

If I clone myself, is it me or is it my son? If I am born identical twins, is it me or my brother? Do you differentiate based on the physical or the spiritual? What is the difference between me and anyone else?

I don't know enough about clones to make a valid arguement sir, that remains a philospophical debate that can go on forever. I can't presume to make a statement about something i have no knowledge of.

Originally posted by mileysubet
But here in reality, why would a omnipresent god not be able to "speak" directly to its "subjects", does this not raise a red flag to you?

Why would it? There are millions who feel that he does "speak" directly to them, who are you to say that they're wrong and you're right? What do those millions have that you do not? (And no, for our purposes, claiming "self-delusion" is not an option )

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Dear lonewolf1979,

If I clone myself, is it me or is it my son? If I am born identical twins, is it me or my brother? Do you differentiate based on the physical or the spiritual? What is the difference between me and anyone else?

I don't know enough about clones to make a valid arguement sir, that remains a philospophical debate that can go on forever. I can't presume to make a statement about something i have no knowledge of.

I was banned for having "non-English" script in my avatar until I changed it, why have you not received the same treatment?

My non-English language in my avatar simply said: :God of Renewal" in Greek...

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by mileysubet
But here in reality, why would a omnipresent god not be able to "speak" directly to its "subjects", does this not raise a red flag to you?

Why would it? There are millions who feel that he does "speak" directly to them, who are you to say that they're wrong and you're right? What do those millions have that you do not? (And no, for our purposes, claiming "self-delusion" is not an option

)

Well for starters, If the supposed god did speak directly to the populace this conversation would be more in your favor..without the laughing icon.

Obviously I lack the favor of the passive aggressive "laughing icon"