So you believe in Jesus.. But which Jesus?

I'm roman catholic, although perhaps less religious than i used to be since i came out as gay. Jesus for me is a tricky one. I think he gets tarred by some of the relgious right wing zealots when in fact jesus was a rebel who loved the outsiders, had quite a passionate temper at times and was incredibly humble. I also believe he was in love with and possible had kids with mary magdelene. This is the jesus i believe in. Son of god AND son of man

reply to post by Akragon

 

I'll make this short and sweet...

He did not once claim to be God... not a single time....

I'll make THIS short and sweet..

John 1:1-2, 14 -
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

You really can't get any more simple then that. Actually wait, you can.

John 14:8-9 -
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

May I ask a question Akragon? I'll only speak it rhetorically, you do not need to answer, but consider it. Why don't you believe Jesus is God? If you assumed, for a moment, that Jesus really is God in the flesh, would that change your life around, even a tiny bit? Would it even.. make a difference? If no, then why do you resist the thought so much, what point is there? If yes.. then what is the reason you don't believe he is? Simply because you don't want to?

Just.. curious.

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


I'll bite..... The same reason some people are attracted to children, and some people attracted to animals. Some people have no attraction at all and some people are attracted to people who treat them awfully. Others are only attracted to porn, or even crazier - anime!!! It has nothing to do with God's will for you and everything to do with original sin. We are all sinners by nature - we can choose to succumb to it, or to press forward through the temptation with God's will for our lives, which is to love, honour, respect and cherish Him first and then others.

God made a man and a woman to be joined as one in a relationship that honours God. Not everybody is called to be in relationship - the bible is clear that being single is a gift, one that allows a man or woman to focus on God's purpose alone without the distraction of caring for a wife and family. Obviously would not be an easy lifestyle but if one finds joy in God and God alone it is certainly not impossible.

Feel free to jump on me now. I can say that I've lost far more straight friends than gay friends because of my beliefs :/

Jesus is the king of kings and I am just man living in a world full lines separating his flock, amongst them arguing about pointless circles of debate. Let them say what they want to say and let them do what they do for they will go on with what they do. Not am I gonna point my finger and tell them to believe but instead tell then I love them and we will wait till you find your way. Their comes a time in life when they will call upon God in the name of Jesus and ask for help and God will answer their prayers because he is also forgiving.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by autowrench

 

I know you don't really believe that or if you do you have not done your homework.

That's all I got to say about that.

What would you consider to me "my homework"? I have read the KJV and NIV through several times, referred to Strong's and my English/Hebrew dictionary. Every book I could ever find on religious theory and theology, philosophy, psychology, theosophy, Kabbala, Key of Solomon the King, and Lessor Key, Sword of Moses, Black Pullet, and over 10,000 other books. What more is there?
I have yet to meet, or speak to a Fundamentalist who has researched the Bible and Christian religion, few preachers have read the KJV Bible. I read all of the time, every day. I am reading three books right now. Care to point me in the direction of new research? Please do!

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by autowrench

 

That books been completely, utterly, and thoroughly debunked.

Stop spreading deception

By whom? Proof of what you say? The names are historical names, how can anyone debunk one Ancient name and not the rest?
A Surfeit of Jesuses! – But No "Jesus of Nazareth"
(From the Site)

Jesus ben Sirach. This Jesus was reputedly the author of the Book of Sirach (aka 'Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach'), part of Old Testament Apocrypha. Ben Sirach, writing in Greek about 180 BC, brought together Jewish 'wisdom' and Homeric-style heroes.

Jesus ben Pandira. A wonder-worker during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus (106-79 BC), one of the most ruthless of the Maccabean kings. Imprudently, this Jesus launched into a career of end-time prophecy and agitation which upset the king. He met his own premature end-time by being hung on a tree – and on the eve of a Passover. Scholars have speculated this Jesus founded the Essene sect.

Jesus ben Ananias. Beginning in 62AD, this Jesus had caused disquiet in Jerusalem with a non-stop doom-laden mantra of ‘Woe to the city’.

Jesus ben Saphat. In the insurrection of 68AD that wrought havoc in Galilee, this Jesus had led the rebels in Tiberias ("the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people" – Josephus, Life 12.66). When the city was about to fall to Vespasian’s legionaries he fled north to Tarichea on the Sea of Galilee.

Jesus ben Gamala. During 68/69 AD this Jesus was a leader of the ‘peace party’ in the civil war wrecking Judaea. From the walls of Jerusalem he had remonstrated with the besieging Idumeans (led by ‘James and John, sons of Susa’). It did him no good. When the Idumeans breached the walls he was put to death and his body thrown to the dogs and carrion birds.

Jesus ben Thebuth. A priest who, in the final capitulation of the upper city in 69AD, saved his own skin by surrendering the treasures of the Temple, which included two holy candlesticks, goblets of pure gold, sacred curtains and robes of the high priests. The booty figured prominently in the Triumph held for Vespasian and his son Titus.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Klassified

 

I sincerely hope you didn't just call us heathens...

There is not one thing wrong with being a "Heathen." This is the main reason I love to research word origins!
Middle English hethen, from Old English hthen; see kaito- in Indo-European roots.
The word means: "People of the Hearth," simply. In Ancient Times, the Hearth, or Fireplace was the first thing a man would build when constructing a home for his family. This "Hearth" was then blessed, for it was where all family meals would be cooked. The hearth was probably the most important part of a home in those days, and if one looks as an Ancient Home today, sometimes the Hearth is the only part still standing, suggesting very careful construction.

"Pagan" by the way means "Pole". a man would place a pole in the ground to mark property.

Christians just took popular words and made them into their own, and any one of them could now be considered to have an evil connotation.

reply to post by autowrench


That website is ridiculous and if you honestly believe the things on there I feel sorry for you.

I might go create a website about how JFK wasn't really president and how he wasn't assassinated and is living upstairs from me, maybe I'll go write a book and see how many numbskulls I can get to buy into my lies wrapped up in a neat little book,

Tacitus, a Roman historian, wrote the following in his Annals, c. AD 115, which refer to what the Roman Emperor Nero did after the great fire of Rome which occured c. AD 64:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."Annals 15 -44

Exitiabilis is the latin word for mischievous. It means destructive, fatal, deadly. Tacitus was stating that it was a destructive or fatal or deadly superstition. By effectively calling Christianity evil, it is obvious that he was not a Christian. It is important to note that Tacitus is not referring to the death of Jesus as superstition either. Tacitus wrote his history of Rome covering the death of Augustus to the death of Domitian,c.14-96 AD. He used earlier works by historians cross referencing them with each other. He sought to verify his facts, something unusual in the writing of the time.

Phlegon, a Greek writer of the 2nd Century provides further evidence:

"Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." Origen and Philopon, De. opif. mund. II21

"And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place ..; Origen Against Celsus

Another Roman writer who was familiar with Christ and his followers is Suetonius (A.D. 75-160). Suetonius considered Christ (Chrestus) as a Roman insurgent who stirred up seditions under the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54): "Judaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes (Claudius) Roma expulit" (Clau., xxv).

The Jewish Talmud, another ancient document written shortly after Christ's life on Earth refers to Jesus having been crucified on the eve of Passover.

The gospel records: What about the gospel accounts? Importantly, they were written by eyewitnesses. Lee Strobel in his book "The case for Christ" rightfully states that the "eyewitnesses who wrote about Jesus were preaching to people who lived at the same time and in the same area that Jesus lived. This is important, because if the disciples were exaggerating or rewriting history, their audiences would have known it and called them on it.." By the end of the nineteenth century, archaeological discoveries had confirmed the accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts. Discoveries of early papyri were consistent with documentation from the time of Christ to later manuscripts. In addition to the papyri discoveries, an abundance of other manuscripts came to light. Over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence today. In fact, as historical records, the gospel accounts can be considered to be some of the the most reliable ever.

reply to post by autowrench


That bunk website quotes from this guy:

As an anti-Christian Greek philosopher, Celsus mounted an attack on Christianity. Celsus wrote that Jesus's father was a Roman soldier named Panthera. The views of Celsus drew responses from Origen who considered it a fabricated story.[13][14] Raymond E. Brown states that the story of Pantera is a fanciful explanation of the birth of Jesus which includes very little historical evidence - Brown's analysis does not presuppose the doctrine of the "virgin birth," but cites the lack of historical evidence for Celsus' assertion.


That website is such junk I can't believe you'd fall for that man,

you are so easily deceived and it's so sad to see you buying into it and disregarding truth as fiction,

I feel for you man

reply to post by Iason321

I thought I had read that before.....
www.earlychristianwritings.com...

Anyone can copy and paste someone else's work.

reply to post by autowrench


You live in a world of books and in the books you will be and you linger for answers from books and in books your answers will be. Go outside and say hello to the people around you and to the children in your family and to your aunts and uncles. God lives in everything and not even books can measure to the beauty that surrounds you and you let them pass you by because you feel the need to find something other than God. Look at the people and watch how they behave because some books are alive and walk among you and that's how we grow and treat each other.
Knowledge will be your downfall because you long to be right and you hate the ones that called you down because they where religious and you hate how they get the respect and you don't.
respect you I do and you have a choice and I will not hinder your quest for knowledge and just to let you know their is beauty out their.
I know religion is like that because they did that to me when I walked in from both catholic and Anglican and also a priest from Anglican said to me when I went to baptize my child not to steal one of their books and he laughed.

reply to post by autowrench


False premises, again,

There is such an OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE FOR THE HISOTORICITY, you're relying on fringe websites with fringe beliefs that are NOT supported with corroborating evidence,

That website claims the persecutions of christians in rome didn't even happen, that is such an outrageous claim I don't even know how to address it.

Again, I ask you, if you believe in everything you're showing me, do you also believe JFK lives upstairs from me and he wasn't really killed by LHO? Cus man, I'm tellin ya! It's the truth!

Forget about what everyones ever taught you or what everyone knows to be the true story,

I'm telling you RIGHT NOW autowrench, JFK is upstairs from me and he SURVIVED THE HIT! It's all a lie man!

I'm gonna go write a book on the subject now, maybe get rich off peoples gullibility

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


God created you and gave you free will but if you take bites of the forbidden fruit than it's that of the deceiver because their is Good and evil. Temptations are always their and always they will whisper sweetly to you and you will fall, than only God and God alone knows what will happen to you when you die.

reply to post by Lionhearte

John 1:1-2, 14 -
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Johns narration... not the words of Jesus...

You really can't get any more simple then that. Actually wait, you can.

John 14:8-9 -
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Keep reading my friend...

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak NOT OF MYSELF: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

May I ask a question Akragon? I'll only speak it rhetorically, you do not need to answer, but consider it.

Of course...

Why don't you believe Jesus is God?

Because its obvious he wasn't God to me.... others seem to have that issue... i do not.

If you assumed, for a moment, that Jesus really is God in the flesh, would that change your life around, even a tiny bit?

Nope not in the least.... that is the actual issue here... Christians assume he said something he did not... He never claimed to be God, and in one situation he even denied it... though most of you like to overlook that passage...

Others claimed he was God... John uses it in his narration... Thomas called him God... Jesus didn't ever make that claim... if he did i would gladly change my stance... Unfortunatly unless some scripture comes to light that has never been revealed to the world sometime in the future, my stance on the issue remains solid...

Would it even.. make a difference? If no, then why do you resist the thought so much, what point is there? If yes.. then what is the reason you don't believe he is? Simply because you don't want to?

Are you actually pleading with me to take a christian stance on the issue, when its clear that claiming he was God in the flesh is a flaw? Sorry my friend, my beliefs change when i find a higher truth... and they haven't changed in many years...

Let me make it as simple as i can for you to understand... He never once claimed he was God... that is an assumption held by the churches of the world... Since he never made that claim... by saying he was God you call him a liar by omission... meaning for some reason he left that important little factoid out of his lessons...

Now as far as i've read he did not lie... so i will not make him a liar... You can feel free to do so... but i will not.

He did not claim to be God... not one time... Don't you think if he was God in the flesh, he would have said so... not try to hide it from the world?

27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

reply to post by WarriorOfLight96

Oh, you think I sit inside and real all the time? No way! I have a very full life. I did what I wanted to do, and made a great deal of money, raised a family, now raising another family. Built cars that would pull the front wheels off the ground, drove semi in 48 States.

I say in close touch with my uncle and aunt, the only surviving members of my family outside my kids, one lives with me, the other has her own family.

Knowledge will be your downfall

I wish I had a quarter for every time I have heard that. Usually coming from a person who has never read a book, is that the case for you? A few Christians have even told me I could not "understand" the Bible unless I "gave my heart to the lord, and received the holy spirit." Knowledge is power, friend. Always was, always will be. Ignorance is the downfall of humankind.

reply to post by Starchild23

All of these creatures display homosexual tendencies, rather against scripture, I would think. This also indicates that it is a gene, rather than a choice. Furthermore, this list only covers a quarter of the organisms displaying homosexual behavior.

Here is a question for you. I have read an article, some time ago that Scientists Discover Mother Monkeys Who Kill their Babies - TIME

The explanation for such pitiless behavior is as cold as it is unavoidable: tamarin mothers are simply very good at balancing their genetic ledgers and know when they're heading for a loss. If they're raising babies that have a poor chance of surviving anyway, why make a pointless investment of time, resources and calories trying to keep them alive? Better to cut their losses, bag the babies and wait for a better season to breed.

top-10-fratricidal-baby-animals

The most amazing thing about these cannibalistic tiger salamanders is that they seem to recognize their siblings and will usually avoid killing them; instead, they go after unrelated tadpoles born in the same pond. They can even recognize their first cousins and avoid eating them as well! But if food is too scarce, they don’t mind gulping a few brothers or sisters, hence their inclusion in this list.

Those animals, display cannibalistic and infanticide tendencies.
What´s your view on this ? Is it an immoral behavior ? After all, your argument is, that if the animals doing it, why can´t we do it also.

What do our resident Christians have to say about that?

That the Bible was written for man and not for Birds,Bugs,flowers etc.

Peace

PS : I know that my post is bit off-topic, sorry for that OP. I will refrain from further off-topic posts.