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....quoting from the interview with Michael J. Winter:
Mr. Winter explained the Aircraft Condition and Reporting System ACARS uses radio ground stations RGS at various locations throughout the United States for communication. The messages from the aircraft utilize the RGS in a downlink operating system. A central router determines the strongest signal received from the aircraft and routes the signal/message to UAL flight dispatch.
The thing is, that describes downlink, not uplink.
That last sentence is confusing: it doesn't actually mean "confirmation", it connotes the origin of the message, but it can be (deliberately) misconstrued to mean "confirmation", and that's what I think happened.
I think what I'm on to here is the anatomy and the genesis of P4T's article.
Originally posted by ProudBird
reply to post by snowcrash911
Yes, thank you for confirming what I had pointed out earlier, in this thread:
Knerr provided a cursory explanation of how ACARS works. All such communications are routed through a contracted service provided by AIRINC. That service is simply a transmission service consisted on some 300 ground stations throughout the United States. Dispatchers type in a free text message at their terminals and the AIRINC transmission service converts that message into a standardized air-ground format that is then sent to the plane. The message is received on a small terminal screen in the aircraft and can be printed out. There are two forms of acknowledgement [sic]; an automatic avionics acknowledgement [sic] that the message reached the plane and a crew acknowledgement [sic] that the crew has actually seen the message. Not all messages require the latter acknowledgement [sic].
Originally posted by snowcrash911
Originally posted by bubs49
The Memorandum for the Record is a document released by the 9/11 Commission, therefore it is not a straw man argument to identify the Commission as its source.
Oh. Well in that case, when you cite Ballinger from the same document, you should "identify the Commission as its source" as well. Why the double standard?
Originally posted by snowcrash911
Originally posted by bubs49
Unlike FBI302, who contains interviews by the FBI to several people, among then David Knerr and Michael J Winter, the Memorandum for the Record is not a direct interview to Knerr.
There is no difference. In both cases, there is an interviewer and an interviewee, wherein the interviewee is referred to in the third person by the interviewer.
Event: Ed Ballinger, former United Airlines flight dispatcher
Type: Interview
Event: Interviews of United Airlines and American Airlines personnel in key roles on September 11, 2001
Type: Site visit
Originally posted by snowcrash911
Originally posted by bubs49
Also, the Commission focused only on "messages of interest" and, for whatever reason, decided to ignore others. Knerr was obviously present at that session and we may also speculate he was the source for "The last message (1303:17Z) was not received"
False. There is no speculation. Knerr is the source. Knerr is identified as the provider of the data and the briefing. I quote:
David Knerr, Manager, Flight Data Automation, provided the briefing. Knerr stated that he accomplished an "ACARS audit" on 9-11 on both UA 175, and UA 93 "by noon." He verbally certified that he presented to Mr. Kara in compiled form all of the ACARS information relevant to both flights that day.
Source
Period.
Originally posted by snowcrash911
Originally posted by bubs49
however the MFR is not an affidavit or a document by David Knerr.
Neither is an FBI 302.
I quote:
An FD-302 form is used by FBI agents to "report or summarize the interviews that they conduct" [3][4] and contains information from the notes taken during the interview by the non-primary agent.
It consists of information taken from the subject, rather than details about the subject themselves.
A forms list from an internal FBI Website lists the FD-302 as Form for Reporting Information That May Become Testimony.
Source
Originally posted by snowcrash911
Originally posted by bubs49
I remind you that Knerr declared to the FBI in 2002 that United 93 kept on receiving messages until 10:12 EDT and only after that time the ACARS uplinked by the airline were rejected.
Thanks for the reminder. I read the document. Here's what Knerr said, I quote:
In the final moments, at 10:12 AM EST, of UA FLIGHT 93's flight, ACARS messages were being sent from ground communications but were not being received. This was causing the ACARS messages to be rejected. KNERR advised that FLIGHT 93's low altitude may have caused this dilemma or the fact that FLIGHT 93 had already crashed at the time the messages were sent.
Source
Nowhere in there does Knerr "declare" anything you say he did, except if you allow yourself some creative interpretation, which, clearly you do. Not only is 10:12 erroneously referred to by the FBI as Flight UA 93's "final moments", all Knerr is stating is that at that time, messages were to UA 93 were being rejected, not that they had successfully arrived before that. FBI gets the time wrong, and Knerr doesn't say what you claim he does.
Messages #18 and #19 were sent to the aircraft from CHIDD using the RGS near Champaign, IL CMI as designated in the line "AN N591UA/GL CMI...". Both messages were sent to the printer and Message #19 also activated an audible signal in the aircraft.
Messages #20 to #24 were sent to the aircraft from CHIDD. However, all of the messages were rejected indicating the aircraft did not receive them.
In the final moments, at 10:12 AM EST, of UA FLIGHT 93's flight, ACARS messages were being sent from ground communications but were not being received. This was causing the ACARS messages to be rejected. KNERR advised that FLIGHT 93's low altitude may have caused this dilemma or the fact that FLIGHT 93 had already crashed at the time the messages were sent.
Originally posted by snowcrash911
I'm not sure what your point is. Since you guys claimed in the past, using the flight explorer video from MSNBC, that UA 175 flew northeast of NYC after its crash, have you figured out yet which data set you'd prefer to mislead your supporters with?
Originally posted by gman1972
Originally posted by ThePostExaminer
Ballinger worked through the ACARS messages for the FBI as seen in the ACARS PDF. Are you really trying to tell us that this guy's "opinion" isn't worth taking into consideration over yours (whatever it is now) and gman's??
I don't have an opinion examiner, I am sharing my knowledge on the subject and my access to be able to share it. I invited people to teach me something that I may not know. Not sure why you guys keep dragging me though the mud, I haven't said one bad, condescending, aggressive, or otherwise remark this whole time.
Geese even when i was misquoted I didn't come out with, "obviously you can't read" or "Please reread what I wrote you obviously didn't pay attention." or any of the other common remarks.
Can you guys just calm down a bit so we can have a rational discussion on this?
And ACARS messages are fast. Out of my office window I can see aircraft departing from 19R at ARN. When the aircraft lifts off ACARS sends the off message. VHF to the local ACARS transceiver at ARN, then landline to our base at LHR, then back to my printer as a MVT message. I hear the printer clack out a MVT msg and look up and see the A319 at 100ft on departure. It is also useful when they arrive. I don't have to meet aircraft, just be ther a few minutes later. So I can relax in the office and wait till the arrival ACARS msg arrives on the printer. They all make exactly the same sound so I can tell it is a MVT msg from across the room. Then I put my coat on and get in the van.
Originally posted by ThePostExaminer
Proudbird, nice cherrypicking of my points. Particularly the section I clearly stated were "my 2cents".
There's no need for "us" to contact Ballinger regarding his claims that the timestamps refer to time sent/time received. You're claiming he is wrong. No if, no buts, he's simply wrong according to GLs.
Let's see if you can respond to the points that you omitted.
1. You say that Ballinger was merely stating "his opinion" in that the timestamps referred to time sent and time received, yet we should take your (still retracted?) "opinion" which is based on the latest most spinnable claims until the next one comes along?
Ballinger worked through the ACARS messages for the FBI as seen in the ACARS PDF. Are you really trying to tell us that this guy's "opinion" isn't worth taking into consideration over yours (whatever it is now) and gman's??
2. What's being said here? That a communications system which is used for many purposes which range from the relatively "mundane" to timesaving to possible life threatening situations such as weather fronts (the need to divert) or warnings such as "possible hijackings" is simply left to chance??
That a message sent from ground control is simply thrown into the ether? That ground control receive no digital confirmation that the message has been received?
3. Read the ACARS PDF notes show at 09:21AM
pilotsfor911truth.org...
There was no "backlog" or "delay" in the printer or whatever. The message was physically sent at @09:21AM according to the notes. End of story.
I'm not sure whether it was you or gman who made the "backlog" claim. Do you agree now that this wasn't the case?
4. The message was apparently received and recognized by the cockpit MU in Pittsburgh 20 minutes after UA175 allegedly impacted. The timestamps "sent/received" claim is backed up by Ballinger, And Ballinger's "opinion" logically makes sense (re: point 2) and obviously holds more weight than anything you say.
Why did the ACARS message specify Pittsburgh if as you say it was just following the flightpath? Why specifically "stop" there over an hour after it had taken off?
Deep breaths now...
We already know the date/time at the bottom references telex printer times; which means we apparently don't have the actual acknowledgment information in the FOIA data.
Originally posted by gman1972
I think you guys are getting to the heart of it now.
The way I see it is in regular flights the ACARS sends it's position report every 10 minutes as stated, the ARINC system tracks this and continually routes the up links to the correct station.
The question is what does the ARINC system do when it stops receiving the position down link? I don't know, but would guess that being as how its a program that it would follow a normal routine, for example checking the stations farther along the planned route, or at least the direction of flight. Uplinks are lost, not frequently but sometimes, I would imagine that there would be a trouble shooting part built into this multimillion system which would attempt to reconnect with the airplane.
Sorry have to stop in mid thought, got something I need to deal with
Two types of flight tracking (or flight following) protocols are used for this process. Category A and B. First is Category A. This type of flight following uses Flight Tracking messages automatically sent from the aircraft, typically every 10 minutes. These messages are a data link and do not contain any text, therefore the customer airline does not receive these messages, they are used for Flight Tracking purposes only. When the Flight Tracking message is sent, the Central Processing System (CPS) recognizes which stations it has been sent through and picks the three best stations for routing messages to and from the aircraft. After roughly 10 minutes, another Flight Tracking message is sent from the aircraft, through a new set of ground stations in the vicinity of it's new location, and the Central Processing System dumps the old stations and replaces it with new stations better for routing messages to the aircraft. This process continues throughout the flight automatically. The second type of Flight Tracking, Category B, is a bit more simple. The aircraft continuously monitors all stations as it travels on it's course. The Central Processing System continuously chooses the best station for routing purposes while the aircraft is in flight. If the flight plan route is amended in flight, and a diversion is necessary, the Central Processing System chooses a new remote ground station along the diverted flight path based on this flight tracking protocol, tracking the aircraft
The reason for this type of flight tracking, Category A and B, is due to the fact aircraft divert from their flight plans all the time, daily. Some have argued that MDT and PIT were chosen for ground station routing due to the original planned route of flight, BOS to LAX. However, if ACARS routing was based on original flight planned route, aircraft diverting from their original route of flight would not be able to communicate via ACARS as they would quickly leave the areas in which remote ground stations have been chosen, rendering the network useless for the airline, and most importantly, the aircraft. On 9/11 especially, many aircraft were diverted from their original flight plans. If the ACARS network was solely based on flight planned route, 100's if not thousands of aircraft, would not have been able to communicate with their company and/or ATC via ACARS. Chaos would have ensued as ACARS communication is a valuable asset to facilitate aircraft operations and flight safety, and the skies would never have been cleared as quickly as reported.
The reason Dispatchers have an ASD is due to the fact the aircraft across the globe deviate from their cleared flight plans daily due to weather, traffic, etc. With an ASD, Dispatchers can keep track of their flights and alert for weather (or other adverse conditions) along the route. Even if Dispatchers had the capability to choose which specific ground station to route a message, why would they choose MDT and then later PIT if the aircraft is diverting back to the east on their monitors? The answer is, they wouldn't. The hypothesis that Remote Ground Station routing is based on original flight plan is completely absurd and usually attempted by only those who obviously are not interested in the facts, instead need to speculate to hold onto their beliefs. As described, the Central Processing System routes messages through remote ground stations based on Flight Tracking Protocol(5).
Originally posted by ThePostExaminer
Originally posted by gman1972
Originally posted by ThePostExaminer
Ballinger worked through the ACARS messages for the FBI as seen in the ACARS PDF. Are you really trying to tell us that this guy's "opinion" isn't worth taking into consideration over yours (whatever it is now) and gman's??
I don't have an opinion examiner, I am sharing my knowledge on the subject and my access to be able to share it. I invited people to teach me something that I may not know. Not sure why you guys keep dragging me though the mud, I haven't said one bad, condescending, aggressive, or otherwise remark this whole time.
Geese even when i was misquoted I didn't come out with, "obviously you can't read" or "Please reread what I wrote you obviously didn't pay attention." or any of the other common remarks.
Can you guys just calm down a bit so we can have a rational discussion on this?
Gman, I think that was the first post that I've addressed directly to you. I don't see how you find it "aggressive" or how I'm dragging you "through the mud". As I said in the post, I wasn't sure whether you or Proudbird made the "backlog" remark. It was you wasn't it?
I was also looking at the P4T site when I made that comment, not really being dragged through the mud on this thread, but on the other site I was getting only selective quotes of what I wrote being posted and made fun of ect. Sorry i should have been more clear that it was a combination of the two. And no it wasn't me that made the backlog remark, I think it was proudbird... I dont' even know how to link to an external website yet lol.
You've stated that the timestamp at the bottom of the printout "definitely" isn't "time received". That's about as finite as it gets, no?
Well yes, that is what I said and then I provided proof of that by sending an acars to an aircraft which didn't exist. How could I get a "time received" stamp at the bottom if there was nothing to receive it?
I agree (and always hope) that these issues can be discussed rationally That's why I want to narrow the parameters of the argument instead of everybody putting their doots up!
I agree, the thread seem to have become much more productive and constructive in the last day.
1. As for the second timestamp being the "printer", what logical purpose does it serve to know what time it was printed??
Beats me, I guess that's the way it was set up to begin with. I did quote a maual from the people that designed the system saying that that is what that is, why they did it that way I don't know.
2. When you said that the printer takes "one or two minutes"...I've read on a ARINC newssheet from 2000 that the messages can range from 15-30 seconds to 1-2 minutes to reach the aircraft. This matches the majority of ACARS messages linked to in the PDF, doesn't it? And why would a printer take 1-2 minutes within a self contained office?
No, originally I said that they come through pretty fast like 15-30 seconds, then I was challanged if it's always that way or if it could take a few minutes. I said somtimes it can take like 1 or 2 minutes but usually it's done within 30 seconds or so... I'm posting from memory, so forgive me if I'm not requoting myself perfectly.
There's also this quote from a dispatcher at airline.net from 2007
And ACARS messages are fast. Out of my office window I can see aircraft departing from 19R at ARN. When the aircraft lifts off ACARS sends the off message. VHF to the local ACARS transceiver at ARN, then landline to our base at LHR, then back to my printer as a MVT message. I hear the printer clack out a MVT msg and look up and see the A319 at 100ft on departure. It is also useful when they arrive. I don't have to meet aircraft, just be ther a few minutes later. So I can relax in the office and wait till the arrival ACARS msg arrives on the printer. They all make exactly the same sound so I can tell it is a MVT msg from across the room. Then I put my coat on and get in the van.
I know it's an automated response from the aircraft to ground control, but the guy is obviously saying that there is an interaction between a message sent and the printer. Acknowledgement.
3. Again I ask you (apologies if you've answered this already) to read through the points I raised, especially regarding the logic of ground control sending a message that may entail a request for immediate diversion, for example, and the apparent claim being made here that ground control doesn't know whether the message has been received or not. That's what your basically saying, right?
Cheers
Originally posted by ThePostExaminer
And ACARS messages are fast. Out of my office window I can see aircraft departing from 19R at ARN. When the aircraft lifts off ACARS sends the off message. VHF to the local ACARS transceiver at ARN, then landline to our base at LHR, then back to my printer as a MVT message. I hear the printer clack out a MVT msg and look up and see the A319 at 100ft on departure. It is also useful when they arrive. I don't have to meet aircraft, just be ther a few minutes later. So I can relax in the office and wait till the arrival ACARS msg arrives on the printer. They all make exactly the same sound so I can tell it is a MVT msg from across the room. Then I put my coat on and get in the van.
Yup, that's a sound I know all too well as that means work done lol! FYI some planes sent those automatic messages at different times, some are when gear is selected up, some is when t/o power is applied, some is when the wheels leave the ground.
I know it's an automated response from the aircraft to ground control, but the guy is obviously saying that there is an interaction between a message sent and the printer. Acknowledgement.
I don't think so, not in an acknowledgement way anyway. It's like if you send an email, you have no idea if the other party received it. Sometimes the off blocks message doesn't get through to the printer for some reason, so I message scan the aircraft and find out what it was. There is no message that gets sent to the a/c saying message not transmitted or anything.
3. Again I ask you (apologies if you've answered this already) to read through the points I raised, especially regarding the logic of ground control sending a message that may entail a request for immediate diversion, for example, and the apparent claim being made here that ground control doesn't know whether the message has been received or not. That's what your basically saying, right?
Cheers
....it is also common in my airline that when you send a message of any kind of importance that you ask the pilots to confirm receipt of the message. Or pls ACK my previous, for example.
2.2.1 Time Stamp. Every message, sent or received by the ground equipment has its own valid time stamp. Time stamps generated by the ground equipment were compared to the MU generated time stamps in the analysis of transit delay.
On the aircraft, the ACARS system was made up of an avionics computer called an ACARS Management Unit (MU) and a CDU (Control Display Unit).