Reform the Prison System

The problem is, the prison system has piss-poor programs for inmates inside. They have a captive audience in prison, yet it has been my experience working in the criminal justice system that the prisons have the lamest rehab programs around. If they aren't trying to suck the inmates into the CULT of A.A. or N.A., then they are allowing religious Bible thumpers inside trying to pound Jesus into the prisoners' heads.

Prisons need real rehab programs that teach self-respect, job skills and job search techniques, and that educate those who have little schooling. All they do now is release them the same way they were when they went in to do their time. They have nothing to offer society if they have not gotten help inside, so they just go right back to doing the crimes they were doing before.

Originally posted by NightGypsy
Let the convicts answer to a drill sergeant. Then, if these guys go fight and make it back in one piece after their service, maybe they can be released or paroled if they still have time to do.

One objection: Military might then be facing problems of discipline and following commands.

Originally posted by NightGypsy


Prisons need real rehab programs that teach self-respect, job skills and job search techniques, and that educate those who have little schooling. All they do now is release them the same way they were when they went in to do their time. They have nothing to offer society if they have not gotten help inside, so they just go right back to doing the crimes they were doing before.

Yes. If they are not going to be put to work they should at least get some education and learn self-respect (which is an important component of not committing crime)

Originally posted by getreadyalready


My personal opinion is that prison sentences of 1 to 12 years make sense, if they are combined with good programs that educate and rehabilitate.

The flipside of that opinion is that prison sentences greater than 20 years make no sense, have no hope of rehabilitation, and are a waste of resources and lifetimes.

People spending their whole life in prison not doing anything, just costing money: Thats one of the many completely pointless things the Government wants me to pay taxes for.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Exactly. And as you pointed out, not only is it a waste of tax payer money and humanity, it is also a "for profit" endeavor that perpetuates its own cycle. It is wrong and wronger!

In my opinion a life behind bars is the epitome of "cruel and unusual punishment."

For that matter, death row and last second appeals and pardons are also the very definition of cruel and unusual punishment. Imagine, we're going kill you, it might be today, it might not. It might be tomorrow, can't say for sure, but the one thing for certain, we are going to kill you. And that goes on for 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, and then the fateful day comes, they give you a last meal, a priest, some anti-anxiety medicine, they lead you down a hallway, give you a physical (whatever that is for?), and then you are finally prepared to die, you wait, and wait, and then they unstrap you, and lead you back to a cell, the execution was stayed, you get another appeal, weeks pass, months pass, and then it is denied, and you get a new date! You get all those last rites all over again, you agonize through that last night yet again, and so on and so on!

In my opinion, the only thing more important than a speedy trial by my peers, is a speedy execution by my peers!

reply to post by Skyfloating

I did not call for them to be released instead of sitting around, but to work instead of sitting around.

Ah yes, true. Sorry.

I think though, some of them work within the prison itself though, to keep it going. Laundry, kitchen, maintenance. Not positive, but sometimes they can earn money to go into a fund they can spend at a canteen. Also don't they have "trustees", or "trustys",and they can aspire to this rank, and have jobs outside.

I would rather them have work within the facility, like on an assembly line, then out in the community. At least the murderers. I don't trust murderers.

I can only speak for Ontario. You mileage may vary.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
This ends up making prisoners feel better about themselves and us benefiting from them as some form of compensation for what they have taken.

That only happens with the 1%. Oops people. Got into a fight at a bar and has never been in trouble before. Maybe I'm getting jaded after 9 years.

How much does it cost me in taxes to guard, clothe, feed and wash one prisoner every year? And what am I getting back for these costs?

In Ontario that would be just under $300/day/inmate.

Prisoners should work, and if they have given enough back to society, some of them should be let free (especially those in prison for minor offences and those who have proven themselves with good conduct).

This may sound stupid but now you've got union people involved. Can't take jobs away from bargaining members.

Does anyone else realize how ineffective our prison system is?

I'm your poster boy man.

What should be done about it?

They have been trying. They even tried to privatize corrections. Corrections is and always will be a drain on the public coffers.

Edit to add: And yes, there is a certain "social networking" that goes on inside.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I agree with you 100% that "profit"in and of itself is not a bad thing, treating prisons like they're just another "product" to invest in is what I cannot abide.
Yes, inmates should work and learn skills so that they can support themselves when they get out and so their time inside benefits someone (best case - the victim, society and the inmate)
Prison farms are a good idea, it's hard labor but honest and it produces food, something we all need.
In a perfect world people would not feel the need to commit crimes for passion or economic reasons.
Humanity itself has a great deal of growing to do yet.
I tend to look back at tribal societies as a good model, if you were isolated among your tribe it was for a very good reason. The elders would often make the decision how to handle anti-social behaviors which usually involved the root of the issue with the criminal instead of the effects.
I believe that you and I along with GRA pretty much see eye to eye on this.
Damn shame we aren't the ones running the system
Well maybe you guys, I'm not sure I'm smart enough for the job

Originally posted by Asktheanimals

Well maybe you guys, I'm not sure I'm smart enough for the job

I wish I were running the system.

Prisoners would get to work, and wars would be fought and decided in competitive sports.

Originally posted by intrepid

This may sound stupid but now you've got union people involved. Can't take jobs away from bargaining members.

The whole idea of there not being enough work has always been difficult for me to grasp. Right off the bat I could list about a Trillion things that could be improved.

Nice overall post.

reply to post by Skyfloating

...This ends up making prisoners feel better about themselves and us benefiting from them as some form of compensation for what they have taken...

That would definitely be the compassionate approach. I don't really know anything about corrections - but it just feels right. Seems like it might be more effective as well. It brings balance back to the community.

Does anyone else realize how ineffective our prison system is?

What should be done about it?

yes, and - I don't know.

I think any kind of change would have to be a change in society - how we look at right and wrong along with a better understanding of what criminal behavior is - what causes it, where does it come from?

Also, deciding what our goal is ultimately. Is it rehabilitation - eventually welcoming a criminal back into the fold? Is it just about punishment - a kind of revenge or settling scores? Is it about making them go away - out of sight - out of mind? Are imperfect people something we just treat as waste?

I really don't know Sky - but it's a good question

Obviously - there are different kinds of crimes - and they can't all be treated the same. I've always been interested in the way different people from around the world handle justice.

My dad lived for a while in the south of Africa - different regions. I remember him telling me about this 'jail' that was set up in a small town in Botswana. It was just a circle of posts in the ground - the prisoners sat inside

No wire - no structure at all really - just a circle of posts. I wondered why they didn't escape - and he explained that there wasn't anywhere to go - it was in the desert. But he also pointed out that it was a way of working things out - shame is a part of it - it just had to be done. They spent their time there until it was time to come out

It was in the center of everything - so everyone was busy during the day all around them - the prisoners were in full view of the entire community. It was enough I guess - sort of a minimalist approach to justice and corrections- but it worked for them

Maybe community really is the missing piece of the puzzle - the sense of belonging withheld, being set outside the group - then welcomed back in

I had a friend from a country in North Africa who told me there wasn't much crime there - not the same as here anyway. He made one very simple statement that always stayed with me: if you did something wrong - everyone knew about it. Everyone let you know they knew about it. He said all the mothers would cluck at you as you walked by - it wasn't harsh, but it was effective. Shame is a pretty useful tool - but only when it's mixed with inclusion

The indigenous justice paradigm is based on a holistic philosophy and the world view of the aboriginal inhabitants of North America. These systems are guided by the unwritten customary laws, traditions, and practices that are learned primarily by example and through the oral teachings of tribal elders.3 The holistic philosophy is a circle of justice that connects everyone involved with a problem or conflict on a continuum, with everyone focused on the same center. The center of the circle represents the underlying issues that need to be resolved to attain peace and harmony for the individuals and the community. The continuum represents the entire process, from disclosure of problems, to discussion and resolution, to making amends and restoring relationships. The methods used are based on concepts of restorative and reparative justice and the principles of healing and living in harmony with all beings and with nature.4

Restorative principles refer to the mending process for renewal of damaged personal and communal relationships. The victim is the focal point, and the goal is to heal and renew the victim's physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual well-being. It also involves deliberate acts by the offender to regain dignity and trust, and to return to a healthy physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual state. These are necessary for the offender and victim to save face and to restore personal and communal harmony.

Reparative principles refer to the process of making things right for oneself and those affected by the offender's behavior. To repair relationships, it is essential for the offender to make amends through apology, asking forgiveness, making restitution, and engaging in acts that demonstrate a sincerity to make things right. The communal aspect allows for crime to be viewed as a natural human error that requires corrective intervention by families and elders or tribal leaders. Thus, offenders remain an integral part of the community because of their important role in defining the boundaries of appropriate and inappropriate behavior and the consequences associated with misconduct.

www.aidainc.net...

this video has some things in it that seem pretty cruel - but, if you factor in that the crime is murder - this seems so...civilized

I guess maybe the question should be - are imperfect people something we just discard - or does every human have value?

but I agree - what we have now is not working, and probably not right in most cases

Here's my take on the prison system, etc. I agree it's broken, and I have a good friend (coworker) that has a felony on his record. He's 39, and stole a car stereo when he was 18 and got caught. He was sentenced to a year in county jail, and served 6 months of that.

Now, here's the part that lights my rockets. He is now an engineer. He worked hard, and climbed the ranks. But, he still has the felony, it's a "life sentence". The guy doesn't drink or anything. He is about as "square" as anyone can be. The thing that makes me angry is that he can't go shooting with the rest of us. He has lost his 2nd Amendment right (I guess it's not a "right") for the rest of his life. Even if he wanted to, it would be a crime for us to let him use one of our guns. Personally, I think this is a load of crap.

I think we, as a society, need to do a better job of identifying REAL offenders. By "real", I mean those who will use jail/prison as a revolving door, repeating crimes, and always coming back to their home away from home. These people obviously cannot be rehabilitated, and when they do get released, they only create NEW victims. For those that can be rehabilitated, they need to have ALL of their civil rights restored...ALL OF THEM! It's been over twenty years since he got out of jail, and he's still being punished for a $350 radio. I don't see that as "justice". Meanwhile, the courts lets illegal aliens run around with impunity.

For the repeat offenders, I would lock them up for life, and if they are violent offenders, I think they should be executed. No appeals, just execute them. If you take a life, rape a kid, or a woman or another man, whatever, you don't deserve to be let back into society. If you shoplift, steal a car radio, boost a car from a dealership, or do other non-violent crimes, once you've served your time, paid your fines, then 20 years afterwards (as long as you have no other convictions) you should have ALL of your rights restored immediately, and the original charge sealed from your record. You should be able to check "no" on applications asking if you've been convicted of a crime, and you should be able to walk into a gun dealer and buy a firearm, or get your FFA license yourself, become a cop, or a teacher, or anything else.

I know this won't happen, because I'm convinced the government is hell bent on disarming as many people as they can, and if they can do so by changing everything they can to a felony, they'll do it. Yes, there are some VERY BAD felons out there, and I'd be willing to say the majority are. However, there are some felons who are living their lives right, are not a threat to anyone, and just want to have the same civil "rights" as everyone else. We've all done things that could be considered a "felony", but most of us have never been caught, and don't do that anymore. I smoked a lot of weed in high school, and took '___' once. I drove my car while drunk at the age of 17, and I often times went 140mph down the freeway. I never got caught, but that doesn't change who I am today, but if I had a felony conviction, I would always have that label, and never have any way to change it. It's a life sentence, as I've already stated. In a lot of ways, that "F" on the record will eventually create repeat offenders, if they can't find work.

On the contrast of this, I blame the police and prosecutors as well. With the number of DNA cases exonerating guys that have been in prison for decades, I wonder what evidence may have been fabricated, or hidden. I think the only way to shore this up would be to force the police and prosecutors to serve a day-for-day sentence if someone they helped convict is later proven innocent. There is a case in Fort Collins, CO with a guy named Tim Masters. The police lied, and got their conviction. Years later, Masters was cleared. He sued for millions and won, but that does NOT give him back his lost life while in prison. The prosecutors and police were in cahoots and put an innocent man in jail, simply so they could have a conviction and give the illusion that they had done their jobs. Heavens knows we can't have unsolved crimes, because it makes law enforcement look bad. This would have to be fixed as well.

On a side note, I watched a show on TV about a pawn shop in Detroit as well as a POV police show. My wife and I were amazed at how stupid (not ignorant, but STUPID) some of these people are. They are 100% unemployable. They can't speak properly, they are missing the vast majority of their teeth, obviously don't shower, and swear every other word. How can these people EVER become a productive cog in society? I don't see it ever happening. They will simply drag everyone else down around them. I have no idea how to deal with people like that. In one breath, Soilent Green comes to mind, but then my more compassionate (yes, I have a couple pinches of compassion) side comes out and I just shake my head and wish them well. It's tough.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I hope they're not too confusing. In the end, I'm all about the punishment fitting the crime, keeping repeat offenders off the streets forever, and giving people a chance to rejoin society after they have proven they have learned their lesson and are not a threat.