Beijing admits it is building an aircraft carrier

reply to post by Jazzyguy


It just goes to show you that even after all the rhetoric regarding how easy it would supposedly be for them to sink a US carrier the Chines believe in the carriers survivability . . . otherwise why make such an expensive investment?

reply to post by Pervius


The ex-Varyag is not currently on sea trials. It is still being fitted. News such as your are posting would have been all over the Chinese Defence Forums. Ex-Varyag is still in dock and a very long way from sea trials.

Scroll through the older posts on the following.

china-defense.blogspot.com...

TJ

Originally posted by markygee
Even more interesting is what will they fly off it? Will it rival the joint strike fighter with vtol?

Nothing more exotic that Su-27 Flanker variants. The PRC have built a training airfield with carrier deck and ski ramp for training of naval Flanker pilots.

geimint.blogspot.com...

The Russian Navy use a similar set up at an airfield in the Ukraine.

rusnavy.com...

wikimapia.org...

The Chinese have visited the facility in Ukraine and have been reported to have bought a Ukrainian owned Su-33 Flanker D prototype to study before they build their own naval Flanker variant.

TJ

reply to post by SaturnFX


The UK may stand a chance though? The other day amidst the MSN coverage of the final military flights of our Harrier jets - which are all being retired (WHY?) it was mentioned in one report I read/watched somewhere that they may be sold not scrapped....

That got me thinking...so many of us in the UK have been wondering what crazy logic would lead to a decision to scrap something that is arguably more useful, flexible and relevant as the Harrier (i.e. over the Tornado)?

Then I had a thought, what if we migt be already in the midst of putting together a package deal of all our Harrier jets with the Ark Royal aircraft carrier [also hitting accelerated retirement] - a nice little ready-to-roll bundle for the right bidder?

I just wonder if it MAY have been discussed during recent PM visits to India and China...?

reply to post by curioustype


Not a chance of selling Harriers as a package to China. There is far too much US technology in UK Harriers. The front end is basically a Boeing product and the US is not going to allow China to establish a carrier force with a partial US assembled UK Harrier II. Remember that the Harrier II (AV-8B) is a joint US/UK design. India has already stated that they are not interested. If it had been the radar equipped variant then it would have been of more interest to the Indians.

Something had to go in the UK ground attack fleet for the penny pinchers. The UK Harrier can't carry Storm Shadow cruise missile and can't carry the RAPTOR reconnaissance pod. It is also limited as it carries no radar. The Tornado GR4 fleet is larger, can carry more and has longer range and has terrain following radar. The Tornado fleet is also larger and will be reduced with lots of spares available to keep the fleet operating until the planned out of service date of 2021. The Harrier had the planned out of service date of 2018.

The only Harrier that the Chinese will get their hands on is the one that they have in a museum. An old variant ex-RAF Harrier GR3 that a private owner gave them.

www.airliners.net...

Prior to that the Harrier was offered by the UK to the Chinese back in the 1970s, but China didn't take up the offer.

TJ

reply to post by curioustype


UK PM visits India 27-28th July 2010 (trade visit)

UK PM visits China: 8-10th Nov 2010 (trade visit)

The aircraft carrier, Ark Royal, makes last voyage
3 December 2010 Last updated at 10:47 Help The Royal Navy aircraft carrier, Ark Royal, has returned to Portsmouth for the final time today -- before being decommissioned as part of Government cutbacks.

The ship, which has been on a farewell tour of the UK, is being decommissioned three years early, and will not be replaced until the end of the decade.

link to article with video - reporter comments at how shocked people were with the speed of the retirement

and...

15 December 2010 Last updated at 02:23 Struggle at the top over decision to scrap UK Harriers

However, many of the Harrier's defenders are still fighting back against the decision made in the government's strategic defence and security review (SDSR) to scrap the Joint Force Harrier jet while keeping the RAF's Tornados.

link to article at BBC

Well, I think I'd prefer to see them scrapped, I wonder who the possible 'buyer' for the Harriers was/is?

reply to post by tommyjo


Thanks, well debunked I think!

Mind you, it still seems a little fortuitous to have such a neat 2nd hand bundle sitting around, do you think there may be any other takers?

We have such an odd relationship with China.
It's symbiotic...we've reached a point where whether we like it of not, we need each other.
Their Capitalistic funding of Communism is working ok.
But that depends on the economic status of the rest of the world.

Then historically, that whole Lend-lease thing that we had with Britain, and China...Protecting Britain from the Nazi's, and China from Japan. (the we pre-communist China, but just barely). This of course also gave the US a chance to set up our war manufacturing plants, without being directly involved.
What would China be like if we had left them to their own defenses when Japan wanted their goodies?

Originally posted by curioustype
reply to post by tommyjo

 

Thanks, well debunked I think!

Mind you, it still seems a little fortuitous to have such a neat 2nd hand bundle sitting around, do you think there may be any other takers?

Why debunked?

China has some ex-Russian and French carriers used as museums, but word has it that they are indeed developing two more carriers aside from the refurbished Varyag.

Originally posted by curioustype
reply to post by tommyjo

 

Thanks, well debunked I think!

Mind you, it still seems a little fortuitous to have such a neat 2nd hand bundle sitting around, do you think there may be any other takers?

Obviously lots of rumours. The Commanding Officer of RAF Cottesmore stated at the retirement ceremony that the Harriers will initially go into storage pending disposal. There are rumours that the US Marine Corps may take some of the airframes and parts to keep their fleet going through until their Harrier fleet is retired. Thailand have old AV-8s for their aircraft carrier, but even they have problems operating them, so I can't see them buying any. Brazil has also been mentioned as was India, but again those are very long shots.

I expect that they will end up like the Sea Harriers. Offered up for disposal after being stripped of many of the systems and end up on the private market. Some will go to museums and some will end up scrapped. The problem of keeping them in storage for further use or contingency is that the Pilots flight currency and combat mission currency will go if they have nothing to fly. Simulators can't provide all that.

TJ

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Curioustype was referring to the sale of Harriers to India/China.

On the issue of Chinese carriers.

Developing and planning for is different from actually laying down/building them. You can't hide construction of a vessel that size at the yards. Take a look through the China defense blogs where even vessels built under weather protection can't be hidden. These are busy and highly populated areas and the Chinese authorities haven't been able to crack down on images coming from the yards and airfields. China still has work to do in developing a carrier and establishing effective operation of it. It is a huge learing curve for them. Other carrier hulls won't even be considered being laid down until they get ex-Varyag up to required standard.

china-defense.blogspot.com...

Once China perfects their carriers you can bet your ass they will be able to build, man and operate at least 5-10 new carriers every year.

Originally posted by sharpy777
Once China perfects their carriers you can bet your ass they will be able to build, man and operate at least 5-10 new carriers every year.

No they won't.

Carriers round out to at least $6 billion a pop. They take many years to build (the Chinese carriers themselves are refurbished ships).

On top of that, China knows how vulnerable carriers really are. After all, they have a fleet of carrier-killing cruise missiles (like old Silkworms and domestic models).

The Varyag is the only refurbished Carrier in China's active inventory, which is going to be used entirely for training when it's completed. In the last report I got, the propulsion system was almost completely finished in drydock and they were installing phased array radar and other electronics in the superstructure. Word is, they should be completely finished, painted, and ready for sea trials by mid to late-2011.

They already have chinese-made copies of the Sukhoi Su-33 that they have been doing shore based training with at a mock-up location. Negotiations have also been restarted with Russia to purchase Mig-29K's at an increased price due to the whole unlicensesd Su-33 debacle. However, still no official word whether or not they will make a definitive purchase. There have also been pushes toward building a naval variant of the J-10 Vigorous Dragon. Nothing flight ready. But some design and testing thus far. I think they are pushing to give it semi-stealth capability but I don't think it's going well.

The next in line is being built from the ground up as a supercarrier. Unlike the Varyag, it is going to have a nuclear propulsion system, larger hangars, and a larger flight deck. I have seen probably a dozen variations on the design they are going for and for the most part, they resemble a Nimitz class supercarrier, with a superstructure and a few other design elements derived from the Varyag.

it is possible that china will own an aircraft carrier in few years because it is known to all that china develop rapidly on many aspects in recent years .it is just a matter of time not the technology

reply to post by thoughtsfull


I'd already mused on whether our hurriedly decommissioned UK carriers may be Eastward bound on another thread somewhere...but I was wondering whether we might be bundling all our Harriers and spares so they'd have some handy aircraft to fly off them?

I'm guessing those anti-ship missiles China have been developing with Iran would fit under a Harrier too?

(I know, I know, it'll never be allowed to happen...well this side of the Euro/Dollar crash anyway?)

Since 1985, China has acquired four retired aircraft carriers for study: the Australian HMAS Melbourne and the ex-Soviet carriers Minsk, Kiev and Varyag. Reports state that two 50,000-60,000 ton aircraft carriers are due to be finished by 2015. Sukhoi Su-33s (navalized Flankers) are the aircraft most likely to be flown from these carriers.
Two years ago, China announced that its first class of carrier aviators had begun training at the Dalian Naval Academy. The naval officers are undergoing a four year course of instruction to turn them into fighter pilots capable of operating off a carrier. China already has an airfield, in the shape of a carrier deck, built at an inland facility. The Russians have warned China that it may take them a decade or more to develop the knowledge and skills needed to efficiently run an aircraft carrier. The Chinese are game, and are slogging forward.

Originally posted by curioustype
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

I'd already mused on whether our hurriedly decommissioned UK carriers may be Eastward bound on another thread somewhere...but I was wondering whether we might be bundling all our Harriers and spares so they'd have some handy aircraft to fly off them?

I'm guessing those anti-ship missiles China have been developing with Iran would fit under a Harrier too?

(I know, I know, it'll never be allowed to happen...well this side of the Euro/Dollar crash anyway?)

The Sea Harriers where a far better adapted to carrier operations than the GR9.. Over the years the RN has sold a few Sea Harriers, and a couple have fallen into private hands..

All China has to have is one or two Sea Harriers and one or two Forgers to have the basis of British/Russian navalised aircraft to marry into the carrier's they already have, in family tree wise, that would give them an insight into a large proportion of the worlds carrier based aircraft (outside the US)

Although given that HMS Hermes was sold to India (INS Viraat, the Indian Flagship) I do wonder about the competition between both nations navies in racing up the carrier path.. Both have brought ex Western and Russian carriers, while seeming to also be leaning towards the VTOL operations.. and I wonder what games we see being played out.

Interesting times ahead..

reply to post by thoughtsfull

Yes interesting.

GIven what we have all witnessed today re: J-20 flight test (well ahead of previous USA intel PR about how long it ought to have taken), given simultaneous revelations re: their UAV and ASBM advances, and as has been said their ongoing commitment to developing pilots and facilities for aircraft carrier delpoyed jets, yes I guess they would be interested in checking over the Harrier.

It certainly wouldn't seem prudent to underestimate their ability to make rapid progress with either the tech or pilot skills development.

By the way, the J-20 seemed to me to have quite a long/sizeable profile. I wonder whether you could fit any VTOL gear forward of the engines (at some future stage)?

reply to post by curioustype


My guess is that they are looking at the tech everyone else is using and how best to counter that tech.

Quite a few Western nations use light carriers that utilise the Harrier (UK, Spain, Italy, India, even Taiwan) while the US uses them in their Wasp class, which shows their use on small through deck Helicopter carriers (Could be used on Frances Mistral class, or the Japanese class etc) while in contrast the Russian have their forger types.. It seems China is covering all the bases..

All in all they seem to be seeking knowledge and tech... and it appears to me to be paying off in the way they are building up their military complex.. not sure it is a good thing, perhaps it'll create a stalemate (As with the USSR) as opposed to war.

I Guess I can only hope..