USA vs. NAZI PARTY

I am sorry for insulting anyone that lost anyone in the holocaust but I see similarities forming now in the United States that occurred before WW2. I am not looking for an 'apples to apples' comparison, that would be ridiculous, but any similarities/dissimilarities would be appreciated.
I am not a historian or an expert on politics, nor do I want to be, but if you could list the pros and cons any of you more versed ATSers have on this subject I think it would be an interesting topic to debate.

Hitler persuaded President Hindenburg to issue a decree entitled, “For the Protection of the People and the State.” Justified as a “defensive measure against Communist acts of violence endangering the state,” the decree suspended the constitutional guarantees pertaining to civil liberties:

Restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press; on the rights of assembly and association; and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications; and warrants for house searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.

This to me feels eerily similar to the USA PATRIOT Act which the U.S. Congress signed into law by President G. W. Bush on October 26, 2001.


We herd sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people. Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
Quote by George S. Patton

Future of Freedom Foundation
Wiki

If anything, I think you understate the possible comparisons between the current state of affairs in the US and the Wiemar Republic. We could do a real list, but I do not want to hijack your thread.

On comparative terms I would actually place the USA in the role of Britain in the pre-ww2 era.. messed up and confused internal and external policies, appearance of losing global status etc...

If you read some of Orwells essay on Britain written at the time he makes some interesting remarks as to how (as with Obama) the British voters went for change, and almost everyone voted for that change, but that change meant in reality no one was willing to pay the price for peace or war any more.

I personally think that is equally true today, we are equally in the same situation and more specifically the Obama Administration reminds me of Chamberlains Government.. We are not willing to pay the price of peace and allow things like Iran having nuclear power or Palestine their own state, but we also are not willing to pay the price a war to enforce whatever the worlds will is..

Even the wars we are engaged in are half hearted, which is (in my opinion) much worse that actually waging war to win as the ebb and flow simply costs more lives and causes more heartache and pain..

It seems to me the will of the world seems intent on burying it's heads in the sand, while trying to keep their hands clean as they did in the pre WW2 era hoping these things will be resolved and simply go away ..

That approach was, in my opinion, one of the main factors that enabled WW2 to happen, and I hope we, as a species will not make that mistake again, tho sadly, I think we will and soon

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

If anything, I think you understate the possible comparisons between the current state of affairs in the US and the Wiemar Republic. We could do a real list, but I do not want to hijack your thread.

I am not like most ATS users I don't get offended when pertinent information is given even if it proves me wrong or misguided. I like to take an objective approach until I form a more subjective theory based on facts.

With that said, are you saying the Wiemar Republic are more responsible for the effects of WW2 then the Nazi party? I am no historian I just wanted to calculate the similarities.

A few that can think of right off.. (Early a.m here just waking up)
1. Hitler youth = Americorp
2. Restriction / checkpoints at airports , railstations, roads = tsa and airport security
3. The annexation of austria, poland, czechoslovakia = invasion / occupation of iraq and afghanistan.
4. SS = DHS
Could probably come up with more if was fully awake..

Originally posted by AnteBellum
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

If anything, I think you understate the possible comparisons between the current state of affairs in the US and the Wiemar Republic. We could do a real list, but I do not want to hijack your thread.

I am not like most ATS users I don't get offended when pertinent information is given even if it proves me wrong or misguided. I like to take an objective approach until I form a more subjective theory based on facts.

With that said, are you saying the Wiemar Republic are more responsible for the effects of WW2 then the Nazi party? I am no historian I just wanted to calculate the similarities.

edit on 12/4/2010 by AnteBellum because: (no reason given)

LOL, no. Sorry if I gave that impression. One main cause of WW2 was the Treaty of Versailles. The treaty established the conditions that made the Wiemar Republics failure almost guaranteed. Without the punitive terms of the treaty, Hitler would never have been able to gain power. There are other factors that led up to WW2, depending on which conspiracy theories you buy into. But in and of itself, the Wiemar republic did not cause WW2.

Originally posted by Expat888
A few that can think of right off.. (Early a.m here just waking up)
1. Hitler youth = Americorp
2. Restriction / checkpoints at airports , railstations, roads = tsa and airport security
3. The annexation of austria, poland, czechoslovakia = invasion / occupation of iraq and afghanistan.
4. SS = DHS
Could probably come up with more if was fully awake..

LOL, do we really want to do this? For example the Anschluss of Austria compared to the upcoming North American Union. Which in my opinion is why Obama and the other presidents wanted to do nothing about illegal immigration. If we really want to do this, I am game. Perhaps a new thread so as not to detract from this one?

I think the present state of affairs bears some similiarities to the weimar republic of the 1920's. A lot of liberal leftists were voted into office during those years. In 1932-33 the NAZI party blamed all of the ills of the nation on the leftists (TEA Party?) when it was never their fault to begin with.

So if we want to say that we're headed down the road the third reich did, then I'd venture a guess to say that in the next decade the TEA party and conservatives will elect an extremist ala Hitler.

The conservatives have all the markings for NAZI's;
-Extreme patriotism/nationalism
-Derision of foreigners
-Economic crisis that occurred just before/during the 'rule' of the leftist government
-Hateful rhetoric in regards to other races, communists, and those 'in power'

Is Bush our Hitler? No. Is Obama our Hitler? No. The progressive movement is the precursor to the extreme right 'waking up' and electing something terrible.

Then again, if you've read this far then you're willing to read this last bit: 21st century America is not 20th century Germany, there are a lot of things that led to the rise of Hitler and the NAZI government...primarily that there were THREE political parties in the german parliament, the NAZI's were the minority and politicked their way into power. We're safe, don't worry too much about it.

reply to post by links234

Then again, if you've read this far then you're willing to read this last bit: 21st century America is not 20th century Germany, there are a lot of things that led to the rise of Hitler and the NAZI government...primarily that there were THREE political parties in the german parliament, the NAZI's were the minority and politicked their way into power. We're safe, don't worry too much about it.

You are right we are much smarter and much better at using things we've learned from our past to manipulate the future. I didn't want a comparison 'apples to apples' but what I was looking for were symptoms of an engineered political movement that would lead our government into gaining similar powers that were gained before pre WW2 Germany. Game strategists have been on the CIA (or who ever) payroll for years, they could politically engineer results based on prior/current events controlling future events in the manner they see fit. We as citizens would play right into this type of plot thinking we are getting what we want when in reality it is a well conceived game of chess leading us all into checkmate.

Many of the few posts given seem to lead in this direction but right now it is just another conspiracy theory that lacks any real evidence. But it wouldn't be the first time a government played sides against each other when in reality they are trying to gain control for some ulterior motive.

Originally posted by Expat888
A few that can think of right off.. (Early a.m here just waking up)
1. Hitler youth = Americorp
2. Restriction / checkpoints at airports , railstations, roads = tsa and airport security
3. The annexation of austria, poland, czechoslovakia = invasion / occupation of iraq and afghanistan.
4. SS = DHS
Could probably come up with more if was fully awake..

So, realistically speaking, it's not Bush's things but rather stuff perpetuated under Obama which is eerily similar to Germany's National Socialist (Nazi) party?

reply to post by abecedarian
Yes and no. Both really. It goes back to at least Bush 1, through Clinton and Bush 2, up to now with the future looking very bad imo.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


Would this be the "North American Union" that's been "coming" since 1992? Well, I wish they'd hurry up, 'cause I'm sick of hearing about it. Put up or shut up, guys!

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

We've been fighting it tooth and nail. Who knows how much longer we can hold it off?

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


Sure you have. Suuuuuure you have.

Frankly I don't think either Canada or Mexico would be willing to take the economic hit that would come from joining up with a country that has no industrial center, produces nothing, and only consumes from abroad. It'd be like trying to hold hands with a black hole.

What you should be worrying about, rather than sweating over the thought of maybe sharing a currency with those scary Mexicans, is the fact that across the pacific is a nation of nearly two billion people that owns most of our debt AND produces most of our goods.

I mean, if you want to worry about something, you might as well worry about something worth you concern!

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by abecedarian

 

Yes and no. Both really. It goes back to at least Bush 1, through Clinton and Bush 2, up to now with the future looking very bad imo.

It predates any the Bush's. It goes all the way back to WW2.

The thing is, all else aside, the push toward 'if you are not a nationalist, you are a terrorist', is about as close to the tenants of national socialism as it gets, although I think the term NAZI is often misused, and wouldnt personally use it to label anything today.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Would this be the "North American Union" that's been "coming" since 1992? Well, I wish they'd hurry up, 'cause I'm sick of hearing about it. Put up or shut up, guys!

European Union, African Union, NAFTA, CAFTA...yeah, why would anyone see a pattern there?

reply to post by captaintyinknots


Out of all of those, only the EU even slightly resembles the "North American Union". The African Union is simply a collection of African states that are like "Yeah, we have some spare money, let's try to keep out neighbor's brushfire wars from spilling over OUR borders." NAFTA and CAFTA are basically the United States plundering the rest of the continent's economies; see again my statement about our nation's economy being basiclaly an all-consuming black hole.

The EU actually grew out of United States efforts during the Marshall Plan to prevent yet another series of wars in Western Europe. It grew fairly naturally out of trade and diplomacy and a common goal; resisting the monolith of the Warsaw pact. even now that that threat is gone, states in Europe - and to some degree, even the near east - are all vying for spots in the EU.

It wasn't as if France suddenly went "Ahahaha, I'm going to own both Span AND Italy now!"

Frankly this NAU thing is threadbare scare-mongering. "Werr gunn lose urr sov-rennity to them thar messhikuns!" - though it does an admirable job of keeping your attention on nonexistant boogeymen rather than crap you should actually be concerned about.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


I disagree, but I dont really feel the need to get into this debate, when you already assume you know my position about it.

For the record, I am pro-NAU. So calling me a fear-monger about it? Doesnt really fit.

nice try though.

There are lots of echoes from previous situations but none are an exact match, because there has never been a country quite like the USA to compare it to.

The Weimar republic was driven into failure primarily by the greed and vindictiveness of the winners of the great war. They had more war debt reparations than they could service when things started to go sour but were given no respite. The severity of the collapse bred the resentment that was capitalised on later. However its worth noting that even with that fuel the Nazis never won an election. Thats the genius of what they accomplished. They took control of the state without ever winning an election. Its worth reading how they actually did that. Its instructive. Once in control they used the levers of power to eliminate competition and manufacture the popularity seen in films.

Now back to the USA. The USA is effectively bust, as is the UK and much of the EU. Buts its all self inflicted. The status of being holder of the worlds reserve currency has allowed reckless spending into empire. The game was up when you went from a producer to a consumer. Unfortunately the effect of that has been masked for decades. When the Dollar loses reserve currency status (and it will, as Sterling did after the war) then the true cost of goods will hit americans.

It should be possible to come out the other side of it all as a reduced, re-balanced post superpower, with democracy intact. That depends on people knowing their constitution and fighting for it. The moral of the Nazi tale is never ever give tyranny a foothold in you democracy due to 'emergency conditions' be it 'terrorism', 'rioting' or natural cataclysm. Once tyranny checks in it never leaves without war.