JT Round 1. Naeem11111 vs orange-light: So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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posted on Nov, 15 2010 @ 03:08 AM
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The topic for this debate is "Dolphins may have the capacity to surpass humans in intelligence.”

Naeem11111 will be arguing the "Pro" position and begin the debate.
orange-light will be arguing the "Con" position.

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edit on Mon 15 Nov 2010 by The Vagabond because: (no reason given)
edit on Sun 21 Nov 2010 by The Vagabond because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 21 2010 @ 10:16 AM
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Naeem11111 has taken over the pro position for this debate and has 24 hours from this post to make his opening statement



posted on Nov, 21 2010 @ 02:37 PM
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I request for a 24 hour extension, moderators.
orange-light thank you for your patience, much appreciated.

-Naeem

Mod Edit: Request for extension has been rescinded. Naeem11111 retains his extension for later use.
edit on Sun 21 Nov 2010 by The Vagabond because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 21 2010 @ 04:16 PM
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"Dolphins may have the capacity to surpass humans in intelligence"



Good day every one.

This is my first debate on ATS, hopefully it will go well. Good luck to my opponent.

I give my thanks to those members on ATS who have spent their free time on setting this whole debate up, especially I would like to thank Vagabond for the effort that has put in and for allowing me to participate as I was a late. Thank you all very much for doing this for us. I hope this will be as interesting for all of you as it is for me.

So, do dolphins have the capacity to surpass human intelligence?

Comparing the intelligence of humans and dolphins is difficult. Firstly each species have developed or adapted its own specific skills in its own environment in order to survive. For dolphins, being able to swim and dive is necessary to survive but not for most humans. Secondly as human intelligence differs from person to person, there are approximately 50 species of dolphin and only a few are considered to be near human intelligence, so tests are conducted for an average.

There have been tests which prove that dolphins do have intelligence comparable to humans and may even surpass them. Scientists are already stating that dolphins should be “considered nonhuman persons”. Even studying their way of life shows that dolphins are kind, gentle and lovely to not just each other but are willing to show their friendliness to other species as well (in most cases), and even swim towards the surface in groups to let complete strangers (humans) stroke them and show their are friendly and make happy cries.

When you visit the aquariums, you see dolphins listening to commands from humans, even though humans communicate by using speech and dolphins communicate by whistling and clicks. Two completely different ways of communicating and dolphins already understand humans naturally, whereas humans are still studying, to try and crack the code to understand dolphin behaviour.

Question one: Why are humans in general consistently unable to even show friendliness?

Question two: Why do our kids struggle to even listen and obey commands from others, if dolphins can so willingly?

This is all for my opening statement.

-Naeem
edit on Sun 21 Nov 2010 by The Vagabond because: Request for assistance removed after assistance was rendered.



posted on Nov, 22 2010 @ 12:38 PM
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I am very happy that Naeem followed the shout of the Vagabond to jump into this debate. I know it is a big step to stand up for one’s very first debate in this forum. So thank you very much Sir, for joining us. I promise this will be fun and we will end up having gained much more knowledge than we have now – both of us.

And thanks for the readers and judges dealing with this debate and tournament, even if you have heard such words a hundred times, your work and effort is much appreciated.
And thank you to the Vagabond for setting this up!

We are dealing with fish – ok not real fish since dolphins are like humans mammals.


"Dolphins may have the capacity to surpass humans in intelligence.”



Everybody knows that dolphins live in the sea. They belong to the order of Cetaceans and consist of about 40 different species.
That’s a huge family.

Dolphins are not stupid, that’s true. They have a big brain – brain-body-ratio is higher than the human brain-body-ration.

Does this necessarily mean that the dolphin is more intelligent than a human?

The answer is no.

The brain of the dolphin is a complex organ which seems to be specialized for the living in water. It consists of much more glia cells and compared to that fewer nerve cells.
A theory is that the glia cells help with heat insulation.

Before we go deeper into the dolphin and its assumed intelligence, we should take a closer look what intelligence means and how it is measured.


Intelligenz


1
a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)

1

Quiet interesting!

An intelligent person is able to deal with new situation, is able to manipulate her / his own environment and is able to think abstractly.
Intelligence can be measured by tests with objective criterias. The result of such a test is usually called the IQ – Intelligence Quotient.


An intelligence quotient, or IQ, is a score derived from one of several different standardized tests designed to assess intelligence. The term "IQ," from the German Intelligenz-Quotient, was devised by the German psychologist William Stern in 1912 as a proposed method of scoring children's intelligence tests

2

The scores are a so-called normal or Gaussian distribution.
Everybody has seen this bell shaped before – I will provide an image later in this debate, since there are no images allowed in the opening post.

Later on in this debate I will also show you some examples of Intelligence Tests and you will see that – even given that the dolphin is a very clever animal, maybe one of the most clever animal living on this planet – a dolphin will never be able to pass such a test.

What usually happens is that humans get fond of the animals. They love the way some dophins act, that they swim next to them when they are on the sea in a boat. Even that some dolphins come close to swimming humans and allow them to touch them and swim next to them or even rescue them when they are in danger. This is a social behavior.

Humans tend to humanize animals.
The results can be seen in TV shows like: “Flipper” (dolphin) or “Lassie” (dog) or “Skippy” (kangaroo). The animals are not only extremely intelligent; they are of high moral integrity. The animal as super human!

Socratic Question #1:
According to the given definition of intelligence, in which way does a dolphin change his environment?

Socratic Question #2:
How can the intelligence of a dolphin be measured and compared to the human IQ?

Socratic Question #3:
Do you consider that every social behavior is a sign for intelligence? If so – why?


 


Replies to the Socratic Questions of my opponent


Question one: Why are humans in general consistently unable to even show friendliness?


This is not true. In fact this is a generalization of my opponent.
There might be some humans who are not able to show friendliness, but I know many many humans who are very friendly people.



Question two: Why do our kids struggle to even listen and obey commands from others, if dolphins can so willingly?


Our children are intelligent beings. Obeying a command without questioning it, is not necessarily a sign of intelligence, it is more the opposite of intelligence.
The more the child grows up, the more developed his / her brain will be and the less the child will obey commands from their parents. The spontaneous obey of a 2 year old will be replaced by self-determined decisions of a 14 year old. This is a development when the child grows up.


Rebuttal



My opponent says

kind, gentle and lovely to not just each other but are willing to show their friendliness to other species as well


Dolphins seem to have a very nice character and seem to be pleasant to deal with. Although I doubt that really every dolphin is friendly and gentle as my opponent describes them.

We know that dolphins are a huge family of about 40 different kinds – as in every family there is always a black sheep.

Yet I fail to see in friendliness a reason for intelligence and more than that an intelligence that surpasses the human one.

We can interpret this behavior as a stupid behavior – being friendly no matter how you have been treated!


My opponent claims

you see dolphins listening to commands from humans, even though humans communicate by using speech and dolphins communicate by whistling and clicks. Two completely different ways of communicating and dolphins already understand humans naturally, whereas humans are still studying, to try and crack the code to understand dolphin behaviour


Naeem wants us to believe that the ability of reacting to commands of humans is a sign of intelligence.

Than the dog of my mother must be of same intelligence as Naeem’s dolphins.
He is also able not only to listen to my mom’s commands but also to obey them.

My cats can also listen to my commands, sometimes they are also listening to my stories.
They are so intelligent that they don’t have to obey to me, they actually know what they want to do. They are even potty trained!

Why do dolphins react to human commands?
They are trained that way!
Jumping through a ring getting a fish – one day they jump through the ring by just hearing the word: Jump! They know they will get fish after that.
For sure dolphins as all more intelligent animals – I am not denying that the dolphin is intelligent, but my cats are intelligent too – all intelligent animals love to play, they need this to survive. Boredom will kill them.

So the aquariums let them play and award them fish when they obey – result: command learned, command obeyed!

My opponent also wants us to believe that dolphins are more intelligent than humans, since humans are not able to understand the language of the dolphins.
Hey than all other living animals must me far more intelligent than we are, because we are hardly able to understand the language of animals!

My cats understand me, but I can’t understand their language at all. Most times I am able to interpret their desire.

so I am throwing the fish towards Naeem again – enjoy it



posted on Nov, 23 2010 @ 12:07 PM
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Thank you orange-light, likewise it’s a pleasure joining you here on ATS for this debate.

Replies to the Socratic Questions of my opponent.



Socratic Question #1: According to the given definition of intelligence, in which way does a dolphin change his environment?


Unlike most humans who have drifted away from their natural way of living, which leads to major problems during the long run as we all can see today, dolphins have no need to change its environment as they live in ‘pods’ alongside nature.

Following this system has worked for them since approximately 11 million years ago and therefore generally get on with each other and hence no need to compete over one another in areas such as territory, food etc.

A pod usually is formed of around 12 dolphins and it is the usual social group of dolphins.



Socratic Question #2: How can the intelligence of a dolphin be measured and compared to the human IQ?


There is no accurate way of measuring the intelligence of a dolphin and comparing it with a human yet.

The definition of intelligence you have given is;


(1): the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment


From this we know that the definition of intelligence varies and in the case of dolphins, it will be best (personally) to test them according to the first definition as they will be more inclined to do so, due to their way of living and as for the other definition dolphins have no need to manipulate their own environment as they live according to mother nature.



Socratic Question #3: Do you consider that every social behavior is a sign for intelligence? If so – why?


First of all let’s look at the definition of social behaviour;


Social behavior is behavior directed towards society, or taking place between, members of the same species.


So no, I do not consider EVERY social behaviour as a sign for intelligence.




We can interpret this behavior as a stupid behavior – being friendly no matter how you have been treated!


Not all dolphin are the same, yes most will still show the 'forgive and forget' reply even after treated negatively (which is the only mankind can move forward) but a few are aggressive from the beginning or become aggressive after being treated in a negative way.

You hear about those unfortunate people who are clearly abused by their partners with black eyes and bruises but still cling on to them.

Although the majority are unable to leave for their own personal reasons, such as children, society etc, they are some who can leave their partner immediately without worring about their reasons but still clutch on to them becuase he/she "loves me"

Socratic Question #1: Is the above sentence mentioned also stupid behaviour?

Socratic Question #2: If humans are the most intelligent of all creation, then why do they destroy Mother Nature even though they know the consequences of doing so?

Socratic Question #3: Why can't the majority of humans live accordingly to nature like the rest of the creation?

-Naeem



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 06:18 AM
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taking my 24 hours extension



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 10:26 AM
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Response #1



Intelligence is a collective term of cognitive human skills.
People usually have different kind of intelligences. Everybody knows that some have a talent for math or for languages, others are very gifted in crafts.
There is emotional intelligence and social intelligence, and somehow psychologists come around with more and more cognitive human skills.

Psychologists use to display the measured IQ by means of normal distribution or Gaussian distribution.



1

You can clearly see that the average intelligence of a human being is around 100 – an IQ of 91 to 109 is called average, normally skilled.
You can deal with life!

Scores lower than 90 are called weak intelligence and scores higher than 110 is high intelligence – masterminds like Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking usually have an IQ higher than 140 – but you can see according to the given image: this is extremely seldom.

How do they find out what IQ a certain person has?

This is done by means of the so called Intelligence tests. Intelligence goes hand in hand with the power of rationalness, comprehension, reason, logic, and judgment.
And this is used in the Intelligence tests.

Lets have a look at some tasks in an intelligence test:


1. Rearrange the following letters to make a word and choose the category in which it fits.

RAPETEKA

A. city
B. fruit
C. bird
D. vegetable

Correct answer: bird (parakeet)

2



2



2

Looks tricky right?
Sure some stuff can be learned and trained, other stuff depends on how you deal with your abilities.
It is manageable – but not for a dolphin.

Certainly having a high IQ does not necessarily mean to be more successful in life.
It is always what you make out of it.

Don’t take me wrong, a genius with an IQ of 150 doing a job like garbage man might not be very successful because it won’t feed his abilities. And a guy with an average IQ who might be perfect being a baker or carpenter would literally go under in an science lab.

Mankind uses his intelligence to change his environment.


Rebuttal



My opponent claims:

dolphins have no need to manipulate their own environment as they live according to mother nature


He wants us to believe that this is a sign of intelligence.

Somehow it is given that only humans change their environment tremendously. I won’t discuss if this is good or not. In the beginning of mankind it was a necessity, not only to adjust man to environment but also to change environment – otherwise we couldn’t have survived for so long.

Certain animals have been watched to change environment somehow.
Chimpanzee use to built nets for the evening and use tools to open food or to get near to it.
And they learn from each other.

Dolphins seem to have problems to learn from each other.

Socratic Question #1
Why do dolphins fail to learn not to swim into fishing nets used for tuna fishing?

And please don’t let us discuss the nonsense or sense of sea fishing.

By answering my Socratic question my opponent says:

no accurate way of measuring the intelligence of a dolphin and comparing it with a human yet


How in heaven’s sake can you say that dolphins are intelligent and might surpace human intelligence?

My opponent says:

First of all let’s look at the definition of social behaviour;


Social behavior is behavior directed towards society, or taking place between, members of the same species.


Acutally I am missing the source of this definition!
Can you please give it to us?

I have no doubt that dolphins having a good social behavior.

Most humans have a good social behavior too.
Humans are also social beings who want to live in communities or families or relationships.
Certainly our social life differs a bit from the social life of a dolphin.

Naeem thinks the dolphin is a good example for mankin

most will still show the 'forgive and forget' reply even after treated negatively


Reminds of the bible right?
If somebody hits you on your right cheek offer him your left cheek too.
Quiet an honorable behavior, and sometimes very well indicated.

Nevertheless humans come along with free will, with the ability to think, and therefore they are able to adjust their behavior the way it is appropriate or necessary.

I know that there are also examples of humans who prove differently.
That could be a sociological debate on this people. I bet most of them have low education, low chances in life and maybe if you will measure their IQ it will also be somewhat low.

Which does not mean: social behavior is a sign of intelligence.

It is that dolphins are just made that way.
They can only survive in groups so they have to be somehow friendly and social.

Other animals also live in flocks, groups, families and their social behavior is just the way that they can successfully survive as a group and as an individual.
Some species are programmed to fight for dominance, just to make sure that always the most fittest will survive.

This like the friendliness of the dolphins is a genetically program to make sure that the species will survive.

Socratic Question # 2
What is the natural way of living for humans?

Replies to Socratic questions of my opponent


Although the majority are unable to leave for their own personal reasons, such as children, society etc, they are some who can leave their partner immediately without worring about their reasons but still clutch on to them becuase he/she "loves me"

Socratic Question #1: Is the above sentence mentioned also stupid behaviour?


Yes
Human reasons might not always be comprehensible, especially when it comes to relationships.
Those people clutching to abusive partners have their own reasons which we shouldn’t justify.


Socratic Question #2: If humans are the most intelligent of all creation, then why do they destroy Mother Nature even though they know the consequences of doing so?


Humans explore, humans change environments – sometimes without thinking about the consequences.
To answer this question in a most satisfying way, I need to do a PhD thesis on it.



Socratic Question #3: Why can't the majority of humans live accordingly to nature like the rest of the creation?


Humans are different.

Socratic Question #3
What does living according to nature mean to you?



posted on Nov, 26 2010 @ 09:37 AM
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Taking my 24 hour extention



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 09:48 AM
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Rebuttal
In my previous post I answered my opponents question which was;


How can the intelligence of a dolphin be measured and compared to the human IQ?

I replied with;


There is no accurate way of measuring the intelligence of a dolphin and comparing it with a human yet.

She now replies with;


How in heaven’s sake can you say that dolphins are intelligent

First of all my opponent agreed that dolphins are intelligent in her previous post;


I am not denying that the dolphin is intelligent.

Socratic question 1
So according to you, do dolphins have some sort of intelligence or not?


Actually I am missing the source of this definition! Can you please give it to us?

Sorry, the source of this definition was from my dictionary.


Reminds of the bible right?

The Bible is still playing the divide and conquer game but it's meant for humans only. That’s a whole new area to discuss upon.


Nevertheless humans come along with free will, with the ability to think, and therefore they are able to adjust their behavior the way it is appropriate or necessary.

Humans aren't the only ones with free will and have ability to think, dolphins as do all living creature have them. Yes you do have to adjust your behaviour when the appropriate time comes, but for dolphins their environment is appropriate for them already.

Replies to my opponents questions



Socratic Question #1 Why do dolphins fail to learn not to swim into fishing nets used for tuna fishing?

The main reason for this is because most have never seen a net before, however these nets contain the fish they live on and therefore go straight for it thinking its a 'buffet' without doing much work, and unknown to them what the consequences are. Just like humans they go for the 'easy way'.



Socratic Question # 2 What is the natural way of living for humans?

Living in small groups like villages, rather than huge polluted cities with high unemployment, crime etc. Rather than going to the supermarket to get our groceries we have gardens to grow them in. Instead of having gardens we have small farms, for cattle, chickens etc.



Socratic Question #3 What does living according to nature mean to you?

Imagine a scale with humanity on the left and nature on the right, you would agree that the scale is way over on the left. The scale should be balanced equal, and we should live in harmony with nature not destroying it. Replacing trees chopped with shrubs (whatever we take from nature, give it back as well). A resourced based economy in place with a world which encourages Merit(talent) and given posts to talented people regardless of wealth, status etc. Almost similar to the Ancient Greek world. Personally I would say that our future is planned in concrete with the famous Georgia Guidestones and humanity should follow the instructions listed. These instructions will help us get back on the right tracks, spiritually as well back with our ancestors, with mother nature and in the end become 'one' again.

-Naeem



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 04:22 PM
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Response #3 and Rebuttal



I would like to start my post by answering the Socratic question of Naeeem:


Socratic question 1
So according to you, do dolphins have some sort of intelligence or not?


Yes, personally I think that dolphins have some sort of intelligence, since they are able to survive.

But yet they fail to have intelligence to surpass humans.

According to you, my esteemed opponent, they don’t have to change their environment, because they live in harmony with nature.

This just creates the image of an ideal world, but does not prove the actual intelligence of the dolphins.

Actually my opponent fails in giving us concrete examples of the intelligent behavior of dolphins. He claims that they – according to the given definition of intelligence by Merriam-Webster, dolphins don’t have to change their environment because they live in perfect harmony with nature.

In the eyes of my opponent the social behavior of the dolphins seems to be much more important, again a blatant attempt of lulling you the reader and judges.
He tries to paint a lovely picture for humans.

Living naturally as humans means to him:


Living in small groups like villages, rather than huge polluted cities with high unemployment, crime etc. Rather than going to the supermarket to get our groceries we have gardens to grow them in. Instead of having gardens we have small farms, for cattle, chickens etc.


Don’t get me wrong, not quiet unappealing, but nevertheless unrealistically.
The dream of my opponent.

A lovely appealing dream.

Maybe some of the readers can remember several TV-shows of the 80s like: “Little House on the Prairie” or “The Waltons”.
Sure the families in these shows had their problems, but all in all life seemed to be very easy in the little villages, living with nature, not caring about cities.

Some people might even live today this way, although life in villages has also changed a lot.
It is kind of unrealistic to think that such a life can go on and on and on.
We get more and more people on this planet, they all have to live somewhere.
Since work was much easier to get in towns and cities, people moved there.

A life according to nature means to be in balance for my opponent, a balance between humanity and nature, harmony and not destroying.

He even claims

Personally I would say that our future is planned in concrete with the famous Georgia Guidestones and humanity should follow the instructions listed.


The Georgia Guidestones demand for instance:


Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
……
Guide reproduction wisely
…… 1


Socratic Question #1
How do you define “humanity” based on your quote of a balance between humanity and nature?

Today we have a world population of nearly 7 billion people, the population of 500 million as demanded on the Georgia Guidestones has been at last in 1500.

Socratic Question #2
Given that we have about 6 billion and 500 million more people than the Georgia Guidestones think wise to have on earth, how to get rid of the over population?

Socratic Question #3
In which way would you fulfill the idea of a wise reproduction?

Socratic Question #4
Why are dolphin able to learn tricks when they are living in an aquarium but are not able to learn how to free themselves out of the fishing nets, although it is pretty easy just to jump over it, an ability the dolphin truly has?

My opponent in replying my Socratic question claims:

The main reason for this is because most have never seen a net before, however these nets contain the fish they live on and therefore go straight for it thinking its a 'buffet' without doing much work, and unknown to them what the consequences are.


He thinks it is likely that the dolphin swims into an unknown net, where he can’t evaluate the danger of it, just to get the fish in an easy way.

My opponent doesn’t get tired to highlight the social behavior of the dolphin, something that should be an example for humans in his eyes.

Social behavior also forms social groups, as we find it in human society in schools, kindergardens, working groups, communities ………
Inhering of all groups is: people are participating from each other, in other words: they are learning. They learn about the experiences of other people. This knowledge helps them to adjust to situations, to built up a gut feeling.

Like the legendary experiment with apes:
A group of apes is in a room with a ladder and a bunch of bananas hanging from the ceiling.
Quiet easy for the apes to reach the bananas with the ladder.
But every time an ape is on top of the ladder to get a banana, he is splattered with water.
After a while all apes avoid the ladder.

Now one ape of the original group is replaced by a new ape, who surely wants to use the ladder to get the bananas. But the experienced apes prevent him from going on top of the ladder. In contrary of the rookie they know about the danger that is awaiting.

The apes are replaced one after the other. Finally we have a group of apes where no one of the original group is included.
They will avoid using the ladder to reach the bananas because they have learned that there is a certain danger.

We don’t have to judge whether this is wise or not, maybe the danger has stopped and the bananas can be reached and enjoyed.
What I am going to say is: these apes have learned from the experience of each other, which truly is a sign of intelligence.

Although I don’t want to say that dolphins are stupid animals, but yet they don’t show that they are able to learn from situations that might rescue their lives.

I know that dolphins are able to learn tricks, but yet they fail to share experiences with each other which are important for the survival as an individual and therefore as a species.

Socratic Question #5
Do you think that dolphins regard the group higher than the single being?

Back to Naeeem.



posted on Nov, 28 2010 @ 10:36 AM
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Rebuttal


Don’t get me wrong, not quiet unappealing, but nevertheless unrealistically. The dream of my opponent. A lovely appealing dream.

To me appealing it is, as I already live according to it and so has my family for generations and no it’s not a dream as it is realistic as many humans have done so for millennia and still do today.


Some people might even live today this way, although life in villages has also changed a lot. It is kind of unrealistic to think that such a life can go on and on and on.

The Pennsylvanian Dutch Amish get on well and they have very little problems and in return have immunity from nearly every law.


We get more and more people on this planet, they all have to live somewhere.

There is more than enough space on Earth for 10 billion + people to live with more than enough space. The problems develops when it comes to allocating resources.


Since work was much easier to get in towns and cities, people moved there.

True, during the industrial boom it was easier to be employed, only to be exploited left, right and centre. Today however with out current economic crises, I see many queues with sad faces.

Replies to my opponents Socratic questions


Socratic Question #1 How do you define “humanity” based on your quote of a balance between humanity and nature?

All human beings collectively.


Socratic Question #2 Given that we have about 6 billion and 500 million more people than the Georgia Guidestones think wise to have on earth, how to get rid of the over population?

History has shown many times, that depopulation is possible, all we need is another Genghis Khan or start WW3 with another incident all over our headlines by......


Socratic Question #3 In which way would you fulfill the idea of a wise reproduction?

First of all the second guide states;
guide reproduction wisely - improving fitness and diversity
hence the name Georgia Guidestones, its not an idea. Like the draconian law in China, it’s the only way to help prevent an already over populated country. Look at India it has failed to do so and only more problems will developed even though both countries post WW2 were equally matched but with stricter rules and regulation China leapt ahead.


Socratic Question #4 Why are dolphin able to learn tricks when they are living in an aquarium but are not able to learn how to free themselves out of the fishing nets, although it is pretty easy just to jump over it, an ability the dolphin truly has?

Lets say you’re swimming underwater and them a net comes right at you how will you be able to avoid it? You can not ‘jump’ underwater, dolphins have to come to the surface to jump, and nets don’t float on the surface.


Socratic Question #5 Do you think that dolphins regard the group higher than the single being?

Yes I do think dolphins regard the group higher over the single being.



posted on Nov, 28 2010 @ 01:41 PM
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Response #3 and Rebuttal



What a fantastic world my esteemed opponent is living in.
We should all be envy somehow – shall we? I am not sure.
Yet I am missing the dolphins somehow.

Lets remember the topic of this debate:

"Dolphins may have the capacity to surpass humans in intelligence"


What does my opponent offer instead?


I already live according to it and so has my family for generations and no it’s not a dream as it is realistic as many humans have done so for millennia and still do today



The Pennsylvanian Dutch Amish get on well and they have very little problems and in return have immunity from nearly every law.



Today however with out current economic crises, I see many queues with sad faces.


No dolphin at all.

As far as I know is my opponent not living that much according to nature as he claims.
He is debating in this forum, right now, which proves that he has at least a computer with internet access or the possibility to use a computer somewhere else.

As much as I love my computer and my internet access – my window to the world – I know that this is not according to nature as my opponent wants us all to live.

 


In his response #2 he claimed that it would be better to live according to the Georgia Guidestones, which lists among others


Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
……
Guide reproduction wisely
…… 1


My opponent replied to my Socratic question dealing with minimizing the world population from nearly 7 billion people to the demanded 500 million:


History has shown many times, that depopulation is possible, all we need is another Genghis Khan or start WW3 with another incident all over our headlines by......

emphasis mine

We have to take a little closer look at this!

My opponent also claimes to live in balance with humanity and nature, humanity is to his definition:


All human beings collectively.


Actually I wonder how a second Genghis Khan or another World War go along with humanity!

Maybe we are thinking of different humanities?

Socratic Question #1
How do your thoughts for reducing the world population go along with humanity?

Some people refere to the whole world population as humanity but there are also definitions that goes along with behavior or social behavior:


Human nature, psychological characteristics that all normal humans have in common

Compassion, altruism, or similar positive aspects of human nature along with aggression, fear, or similar negative aspects 2


In this case compassion is the key:


Compassion (from Latin: "co-suffering") is a virtue —one in which the emotional capacities of empathy and sympathy (for the suffering of others) are regarded as a part of love itself,… 2


Compassion with our fellow humans makes it impossible for most of us to think the thoughts of another World War or other methods to reduce world population.

Compassion makes us also shudder when thinking about the way china still tries to reduce the births in her country as my opponent replied to my Socratic question.


Like the draconian law in China, it’s the only way to help prevent an already over populated country. Look at India it has failed to do so and only more problems will developed even though both countries post WW2 were equally matched but with stricter rules and regulation China leapt ahead


In his previous posts my opponent tried to paint humans as kind of devilish, like no real social behavior compared to dolphins – forgive me my generalization – destroying the planet, over population etc. – although he also claimed that


There is more than enough space on Earth for 10 billion + people to live with more than enough space.
– yeah I know the resources prevent us from feeding more mouths than 500 million


Anyway yet I claim that humanity for God’s sake prevent us to walk the path my opponent is laying for us.


Back to the Dolphines


My opponent told us – in replying my Socratic questions, the only parts in his posts where he actually dealt with the dolphins – that the dolphin can’t jump underwater. Right!
But shouldn’t the dolphin be able to swim to the surface and than jump over the net?
Just a thought of mine.

Actually the disability to deal with – as sad as it is – the recurrent situations of being captured in a net – you remember the net is the buffet for the dolphin, shows clearly that the dolphin seems not to be able to learn from important situations.

We all know that a dolphin is able to learn tricks like jumping through a ring:



or balance a ball on their nose


But yet they fail to learn how to deal with the fishing nets.
This is very important for surviving!

Maybe my opponent thinks: a dolphin has a very big brain, like a human, that means he must be as intelligent as a human.
I don’t know, since he failed so far to give us proofs of the real intelligence of a dolphin.

Brain masses:
Capuchin: 50 g
Horse: 500 g

A capuchin is much more flexible in their behavior or in their ability to learn.

Dolphin: 1400 g
Human: 1400 g
Elephant: 4000 g
Whale: 9000 g

Socratic Question #2
Do you agree that quality is better than quantity?

Even the cortex of whales and elephants is bigger than the one of humans, but nobody will deny that a human is much more intelligent than a whale or elephant.

We are not debating what humans exactly do with their intelligence, although my opponent wants to lay a focus on that. This is not the subject of the debate!



posted on Nov, 29 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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Apologise for the late reply, you post fast


As far as I know is my opponent not living that much according to nature as he claims. He is debating in this forum, right now, which proves that he has at least a computer with internet access or the possibility to use a computer somewhere else.

Computers do exist outside cities you know. And you can still live with nature whilst using technology.


As much as I love my computer and my internet access – my window to the world – I know that this is not according to nature as my opponent wants us all to live.

I just pointed out my view, I’m not forcing it upon anyone.


Reply to Socratic Question #1 How do your thoughts for reducing the world population go along with humanity?

The world population is increasing at an alarming rate, and by 2050 the world population will be approximately around 10 billion+. With a higher population the more food we need but already millions of people are malnourished and with less space and resources, fighting will be inevitable hence increasing more malnourished people. It's a dog eat dog world out there.


Compassion with our fellow humans makes it impossible for most of us to think the thoughts of another World War or other methods to reduce world population.



Here on this very website are people are ‘working’ together positively but you still get members posting threads like ‘the end is nigh’ and currently with all this N/S Korea news popping up on our headlines. When you walk down a street and some gives you that ‘look’ many think why is he/she giving me the ‘evils’(not all do) this is negative energy. All these little actions build up more and more until it releases but then it’s too late the damage is done. History just repeats it self. Whereas if you meet dolphins generally they are friendly and are open, again on ATS you see threads about spirituality and compassion and state it will help us pass this stage if you are positive (service to others). Perhaps dolphins are here to indicate to be happy and friendly.



Compassion makes us also shudder when thinking about the way china still tries to reduce the births in her country as my opponent replied to my Socratic question.

They don’t have much choice unless China splits back into several states once again and start wars on one another.


There is more than enough space on Earth for 10 billion + people to live with more than enough space. – Yeah I know the resources prevent us from feeding more mouths than 500 million

My opponent thinks that space and resources is the same thing. You can have enough space but not enough resources i.e. Sahara desert.


My opponent told us – in replying my Socratic questions, the only parts in his posts where he actually dealt with the dolphins – that the dolphin can’t jump underwater. Right! But shouldn’t the dolphin be able to swim to the surface and than jump over the net? Just a thought of mine.

First of all dolphins are blind as eyes are useless in murky water and instead use sonar or echo location to make their way around the oceans. And nets have gaps in them to let the small fish out only capturing the bigger fish. When they send out sonar waves some rebound back from the net whilst some go through the gaps hence they think that the object is further away than normal.
Generally nets used by fishermen are huge and dolphins cannot just jump over it, they have to go round them.


We all know that a dolphin is able to learn tricks like jumping through a ring: or balance a ball on their nose But yet they fail to learn how to deal with the fishing nets

True, but from the cases I have heard, its always one dolphin that gets trapped and being surrounded with all that fish it blocks or reflects the sonar waves they emit . Nets are designed to capture fish without letting any escape. Its generally the dolphin that swims away from the pod to venture about that gets trapped but no other dolphins are available in the area to reply back. Even humans struggle when trapped in a net, it is difficult to get out of it as you automatically panic first which just makes the situation worse.


Maybe my opponent thinks: a dolphin has a very big brain, like a human, that means he must be as intelligent as a human. I don’t know, since he failed so far to give us proofs of the real intelligence of a dolphin.

Personally I don’t however some researchers equate brain size with intelligence, reasoning that cetaceans should have the capacity for intelligence because they have relatively large brains. The human brain averages about 1.2 kg, the bottlenose dolphin brain about 1.8 kg. However, cetaceans may use their increased brain weight for processing acoustic information.
Intelligence is a term that is difficult to define, and it can mean many different things to different people. Some see intelligence when it comes to behaviour or knowledge.


Socratic Question #2 Do you agree that quality is better than quantity?

Yes I do.

NOTE


I just like to state that spending my time writing and Posting on this thread is becoming increasingly difficult now as I have just been contacted to attend to another duty for a family member with my already busy life for possibly 2 days I might not be able to come online, so I ask my opponent to U2U me if she allows me to pause the debate till Thursday.



posted on Nov, 30 2010 @ 02:06 PM
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Rebuttal



Before I close my debate I would like to rebut some of my esteemed opponents statements.


And you can still live with nature whilst using technology


My opponent moans about the destruction of this planet. He claims that to many people destroy our earth, a life according to nature is the big answer to this problems.
And yet he wants us to believe that a life according to nature whilst using technology is possible!

I doubt this, since production of technology cause some of the pollution which is destroying our planet.
It could be an interesting topic of another debate.


My opponent thinks that space and resources is the same thing. You can have enough space but not enough resources i.e. Sahara desert.


Your opponent, dear naeem, thinks that too few dolphins are involved in this debate


Anyway, I don’t think that space and resources are the same thing.
Don’t forget that my opponent wants us to live according the Georgia Guidestones, which claim that 500 million people on this earth are enough.
Yet my opponent told us that mother earth has enough space for 10 billion people.

500 million on one side and 10 billion on the other side.

I don’t know how the readers or the judges think about this, but to me it seems as if a cat bites its own tail.
Maybe my opponent just can’t decide what’s right?

Huge empty spaces like the Sahara can be perfectly used to gain new resources in energy, like Solar plants.


Dolphins



Yeah, it is still about dolphins, they have been mentioned in Naeem’s post.



Perhaps dolphins are here to indicate to be happy and friendly.


Perhaps.
It could be a possibility as everything is a possibility.

Yet I am missing the proof of the claimed friendly behavior of the dolphins.

Maybe dolphins are just on this planet to eat fish?
Another possibility!

Dolphins and fishing nets

I truly feel sorry for each dolphin getting captured in such a net.
I can imagine the panic they must suffer finding no way out.

My opponent said:


dolphins are blind as eyes are useless in murky water
,
they can’t use the sonar echo they usually use, because

being surrounded with all that fish it blocks or reflects the sonar waves they emit

and due to huge nets

cannot just jump over it, they have to go round them.


All very sad and very much to feel sorry about, but yet the dolphins fail to learn how to handle those nets.
Yeah my opponent is right, that even humans who might get accidentally catched in such a net will feel panic and have problems to get out.
But due to their intelligence humans will develop strategies not to get captured in such a net.
Something the dolphins fail!


brain sizes

When talking about intelligence people usually state the size of the brain.
Humans have a brain size from 1000–1400 g – in average about 1200 g
A bottlenose dolphin has an average brain size of 1700 g.

But there is an interesting fact called: Brain-to-body weight ratio or Encephalization quotient (EQ).


The idea behind EQ is that the larger an organism is, the more brain weight is required for basic survival tasks, such as breathing, thermoregulation, senses, motor skill, etc. The larger the brain is relative to the body, the more brain weight might be available for more complex cognitive tasks.


EQs of some species

Human 7.44
Bottlenose dolphin 5.31
Elephant 5.25

Chimpanzee 2.48


We can clearly see that humans have the highest Brain-to-body weight ratio. To me a proof that humans are the most intelligent beings on earth.
Whether they use their intelligence wisely, is another question.


Closing



We discussed the topic, if dolphins can surpass humans in intelligence.
I am still waiting on the case of my opponent.
He claimed throughout this debate that dolphins are friendly animals, that they are happy animals.
Nobody wants to deny that.

Yeah we can also agree that dolphins are intelligent animals, but yet their intelligence is not that high that they want to change their environment. Something which humans love to do and do it frequently.
In some definitions of intelligence this is a sign for intelligence, because it shows the usage of the brain. You need the ability to ratio to change your environment.

My opponent claimed that this is no necessity for dolphins since they live so happily according to nature.
This sets them on the same level as chimps, elephants and all other animals!

Throughout this debate my opponent failed to prove where dolphins might surpass humans in intelligence.
He proved that they might surpass humans in leading a happy life.
Which was not the topic of the debate.

I again thank Naeem to made this journey together with me.
It was a fun debate, which I enjoyed utterly.

And no problem my friend with your duties on life. Do them!
Our debate is over and the Vagabond will hand it over to the hands of the judges.

Thanks everybody for being with us, so long and thanks for all the fish



posted on Dec, 11 2010 @ 08:31 PM
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Orange-light has won and will advance to Round 2.


Naeem had a difficult and unenviable position to argue. For the first two posts I thought it could have been won on the social intelligence angle if he had continued to hammer that as a good common intelligence to measure between the species and hammered home his criticism of human intelligence on the inconsistent and sometimes foolish social decisions (ie: staying in abusive relationships, holding petty grudges etc). Instead Naeem began to come pretty far off topic and made the debate less about intelligence and more about viability of lifestyles, which can stem from factors other than just intelligence.

Orange-Light didn't take the easy position for granted, and came out early with links on dolphin brain structure, and later with info on learning among apes which certainly raised the bar for dolphins.

Orange-Light wins.





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