Can one be gay and not endorse the gay movement?

Recently I was reading in a Christian book on homosexuality:

Homosesexualist: A person who, whether he practices homosexual acts or not, promotes the notion of homosexuality as a moral and social equivelant to heterosexuality as a basis for social policy and laws. Many heterosexual people are therefore homosexualists. Many self-described homosexual people are not homosexualists. (Christine McCafferty and Peter Hammond: "The Pink Agenda: Sexual Revolution in South Africa. The ruin of the family". Africa Christian Action, 2001: p.xix.)

That firstly made me wonder, what is the "homosexualist" movement?
Isn't that pretty rich coming from a group of minority Christians within the huge global tradition of Christianity?
And no matter how many evangelicals and fundamentalists the US has, they are still just a minority - a huge collection of cults really.
Nevertheless, perhaps they do have a point here, gay conservative people are often silent (or silenced).
I'm not really sure there is a gay political movement.
We certainly don't have a party to vote for, and as a sizeable minority there is little academic agreement.
I'm not even sure how many gay people there are, or who should be included under the definition.
There is a Western culture of self-identified gay and lesbian people, but that only seems to be a core of identification.
From a non-Western perspective Western identities are middle to upper class, and focus around global tourist spots.
So from what I gather, the "gay movement" is upper class, elitist and sometimes needlessly confrontational.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with being Homosexual morally. The only thing I can think of as a downside is that it is counter productive to a species as two males cannot breed. In our case it doesn't really matter though considering how far humanities influence has touched this planet. For better or worse.

I think that some homosexuals possible enjoy being homosexual as it is regarded wrong by some people. A kind of forbidden fruit scenario. Also, some people get a kick out of other people hating them. So yes I think one can be gay and not endorse the gay movement

reply to post by halfoldman


I shutter to bring this up but I had mentioned the other day to a buddy that I thought it would be interesting if part of our evolution included knowing when to cut down on the population or slow the progression? Wouldn't being gay solve that problem? I know that sounds far fetched but alas here we are. As to the question Can one be gay and not endorse the gay movement? I guess the answer would depend on how successful that person has become and how much friction has that person encountered? Because of his path and the people he or she surrounded themselves with it may sound less important to them to subscribe to it. Can't say I support the movement and really I'm not even sure what the means now a day becaue having any gay people around me seems very ordinary and much like my co-workers who are black, hispanic or gay I see know need for any type of movement today. Christ you can think that Guam is going to tip over if to many people are on in it and still remain senator, people in the porn industry can run for office, there are shows such as the essence awards that cater to black people, latin awards, BET how many more movements do we really need. Bottom line is you are what you are and either people are going to like you or they are not but I personally think we have come as far as we are going to go with accepting racial differnnces or gender equality. Yes that was the obvious all over the place answer but my wife won't listen to me so what the heck...

It's definitely possible to be gay and be against gay people. For example, people who are gay but try to make themselves straight through stupid therapy. There can also be people who are gay who are against certain pieces of the gay movement. For example, I am bisexual, and really really hate Pride Parades. I love rallies, I love that gay people speak up, and I love advocacy at a political level, but I really hate Pride Parades.

But as for your exact question - gays who accept their own gayness but don't endorse the gay MOVEMENT as a whole - I actually think that is the least likely. Because, almost everyone in the world wants more rights, and the gay movement is about rights. I can see them hating pieces of the movement, but not the idea of the movement in general. then again, I suppose there are some people who think "We're already equal so I don't care about getting more rights" but they are few and far between, I would think (not completely sure.)

reply to post by halfoldman


*sigh*

You know you pose a great question, unfortunetly there's no way to prove what I'm about to say but here goes.

The "gay movement" is lead by people who like your politicians "pretend" to be on your side, when in fact they are on their own side.

They are extremists. We the moderates would never dream of being this confrontational, this hard headed and this partisan about our issues. We are misrepresented, like you are misrepresented in your government, at your church and everywhere else that corruption can exist.

Gay marriage for example. No self respecting gay person cares if it's called marriage or happy rainbow time, so long as the same rights are afforded we would be hapy.

So, to answer your question YES, you can be gay and be against the "gay movement". I certainly am. No reason to make any sort of movement ( other than a cvil rights one) when it comes to somebody's sexual orientation. We should not label ourselves and create these boxes that allow people to judge us based on a non issue like sexuality.

You are also correct that those who are part of the gay movement, are elitists.

~Keeper

I sometimes wonder how much I have in common with some teen or twenties queen who just wants to hit the town and party with hard drugs. They've never experienced pre-1994 homophobia in SA. They have very little to fight for, and all it is is hedonism and being a major slut.

For black gay people the experience is generally very different from the white city spaces.
I see no solidarity between races or classes.
There is no unified gay movement.
It is a construct of the anti-gays to create a viable enemy.

Originally posted by halfoldman
Recently I was reading in a Christian book on homosexuality:

Homosesexualist: A person who, whether he practices homosexual acts or not, promotes the notion of homosexuality as a moral and social equivelant to heterosexuality as a basis for social policy and laws. Many heterosexual people are therefore homosexualists. Many self-described homosexual people are not homosexualists. (Christine McCafferty and Peter Hammond: "The Pink Agenda: Sexual Revolution in South Africa. The ruin of the family". Africa Christian Action, 2001: p.xix.)

That firstly made me wonder, what is the "homosexualist" movement?

Well by the definition they put out there it seems pretty clear that they are defining a 'homosexualist' (that's catchy) as anyone who supports equal or (possibly) even any rights for homosexuals.

Originally posted by halfoldmanIsn't that pretty rich coming from a group of minority Christians within the huge global tradition of Christianity?
And no matter how many evangelicals and fundamentalists the US has, they are still just a minority - a huge collection of cults really.

Well, you can think that if you want, but the views expressed in the exerpt are right on par with most Southern Baptist beliefs (for example). Southern Baptists represent the second largest Religious group in the United States. They are main stream, legalistic, have more money than you want them to, and they are gaining cohesion, consolidation of purpose and dogma and (according to them) warm bodies saved and praising Jesus. Do not, Do not, DO NOT underestimate these people. They are loud and getting louder. We will be hearing alot more from them within the next few years. Make no mistake.

Originally posted by halfoldmanNevertheless, perhaps they do have a point here, gay conservative people are often silent (or silenced).
I'm not really sure there is a gay political movement.
We certainly don't have a party to vote for, and as a sizeable minority there is little academic agreement.
I'm not even sure how many gay people there are, or who should be included under the definition.
There is a Western culture of self-identified gay and lesbian people, but that only seems to be a core of identification.

Well yes, (and I'd go with 'silenced' more often than I would like to think). There is a social movement but not much of a political one as of yet... comparatively anyway. I do think that some homosexual people reject the 'gay (counter) culture' as counter productive ultimately, (I tend to agree with that) and maybe that is part of what they are speaking of. I found the language a little muddled at that point.

Originally posted by halfoldmanFrom a non-Western perspective Western identities are middle to upper class, and focus around global tourist spots.
So from what I gather, the "gay movement" is upper class, elitist and sometimes needlessly confrontational.

Well I think I see your point... But it's all about perspective isn't it?

reply to post by redhorse

Thanks for that, great post (amongst several).

Interesting how in the whole discourse we must first define the anti-gay forces to define the pro-gay movement(s).
There still seems to be no getting away from that dichotomy politically (but that goes for the anti-gays too).

This goes along with the question: Is is possible to have gay friends that you know and love (not because they are gay), but not agree or not promote gay issues?

I heard recently, a theory, albeit a deeply philosophical one, that made me think...if the world is a direct reflection of who you (or any of us) are, then the question is, where does the gayness come into play? For me, I don't have a gay bone in my body, so for years, this has stumped me as to how this somehow reflected something within me. It didn't make sense. Then I heard a theory that masterbation creates the gay existence. That act MUST be reflected in the world as an outward mirror of ourselves, so "self love" gets reflected in the human drama as same sexed love. Makes sense. (I'm neither confirming nor denying my participation level here - some things should remain a mystery!)_

So I suppose if people want to support gays, then you know what to do (more of). If you don't, then abstain from self-love. Seems simple enough!

I was in the "Gay" scene when I came out; at that time (early 80's) there was no such thing as HIV; although Disco was dying. I found gay men to be untrustworthy and "catty", they played games with your head and they were all about who could outshine who. Clicks is putting it mildly. Drag came in any form, from Biker Drag to Trucker Drag to Miss Prissy Drag. To me it was all another form of Drag.

I felt shunned by the Gay Community, as did my partner; we have been together for 23 years. We do not consider ourselves "Gay" in any traditional sense, although I am surprised that I am as talented as any Queen out there. We are not Gay "Advocates".

We hate that the Gay Community wants to shove it in your face. We hated it in the 90's when they called themselves "Queer Nation". I got to meet Dennis Rodman when he was exploring his "gay side" LOL, that was too funny.

We are against Gay Marriage. Anything that has to do with marriage has to do with the Church, and forcing this kind of union on the masses is really less about 'equal rights' and more about sticking it in the Church's face. I think Civil Unions are perfectly warranted, especially when the commitment is no less and should be recognized as a legal partnership. This includes claiming someone as a dependent.

I don't know any gay people. Everyone I know is straight, I don't even know any "bi" people. Sometimes it occurs to me that as women age they all start looking very "Lesbian". So I get confused and then most times I offend the poor butch momma! LOL Oh well, who would have thought she was straight?

I do like the fact that I am able to decorate nicely, but don't ask me to cut your hair!

I am not too "motherly" that I want to be around sensitive men, but it seems to me the only Gay men that I can detect are the more "nelly" variety. I know, I know, wrong again, those are actually straight men that are emotionally stunted at a young age. Darn my Gaydar!

I am not a Gay Advocate, I just happen to be partners with my Best Friend and I Love him; I wonder if he is really gay? He is probably straight and knew I was too much like his mother to let me go! Go figure! Typical man!

This "discourse" is futile. There will always be gay people whether anyone likes it or not. The only thing gay people want is equality.

There is nothing worse than the self loathsome gay person. You know, the ones in government that are closeted gay and vote against their very own kind. Quite disgusting in my strong onion scented opinion.

I'm not a big fan of gay parades, however it does give legitimacy that there is a large gay community that seeks the same dang rights as anyone else. I'm also not a big fan of flamboyancy within the gay world.

These fringe gay people that wear jock straps, leather, drag and dykes on bikes to parades does offend me. I'm not like that and the majority of gay people are not any resemblance of that kind of mockery.

Pride is full of BS. What the heck is there to be proud of when you have people representing you in such a discouraging way.

When gays march, we should be dressed in our business suits, doctor garb, police uniforms, firefighters uniforms, etc.

How will gays garner and game the respect of the heterosexual community by putting on a circus of freaks?!

Given the fact the over 1500 species engage in homosexual activity, one must come to the conclusion that it is not only genetic and possibly part of the animals social hierarchy.

The Bonobo monkeys are exclusively bisexual. What does that say? A great deal.

Humans are so over consumed with religiosity and sexuality that it is astoundingly pathetic.

Why do humans consider they are far more superior than animals? Remember the big Indian tsunami? The animals survived, but the small brained humans died. We give little weight to the intelligence of our animal friends. We are not greater than them. We simply subject them to our needs. We have no idea what is in the heads of our animal friends. There are gay animals. Animals is such a bad term really. They are also our brothers and sisters of this planet we call Earth.

I have yet to see a gay elephant wear make up and a dress. Have you? Please don't count Barnum and Bailey's.

Originally posted by brilab45

Pride is full of BS. What the heck is there to be proud of when you have people representing you in such a discouraging way.

When gays march, we should be dressed in our business suits, doctor garb, police uniforms, firefighters uniforms, etc.

How will gays garner and game the respect of the heterosexual community by putting on a circus of freaks?!

The modern Pride event is more a festival that welcomes many different minorities to participate and use the outlet to march for their own freedoms. I think the name should be changed to "Diversity Festival" instead of "Gay Pride". Gay people as a community are very accepting, and I can see the clear confusion that it has created. I'll go talk to the nudists at the parade; very down-to-earth people. Haven't met any gay ones yet, though. Trannys? Drag Queens? The only ones I know has a wives and children. People see these and are upset that they are "subjected to look at it ", and immediately blame "the gays!" . I'm not going to pretend that, as a gay man, I care that these people think that trannys and nudists are all part of the "gay agenda", they are naive and silly, I do care that they, along with some gay people apparently, take such harsh stances against nudists and trannys though. Because they literally just don't want to look at them... talk about arrogant. Let me just say, it is very easy to look at someone who is different and label them a "freak". It is much smarter -- not to mention more accurate and humane -- to look at them and say "Wow, that could have been me."

Also, in Toronto at least, gay people do march in their doctors coats, their police uniforms, their military uniforms etc., so I don't know where you're going with that.

I like the Pride Festival because it is a celebration of acceptance, and, for one week of the year, I can walk down the street hand-in-hand with my husband and our son and feel like our family is accepted in our community. All I ask for is one week of the year to feel like society doesn't want to destroy our family with ridiculous political religiousness like prop 8. For one week I love to know the feeling of having my son come home from school with tears in his eyes and blood running from his nose after being badgered and beaten by the orthodox-brainwashed little brats that "Christians" call their "children"... Because he has two daddies and, get this, some heteros think homosexuality is contagious. Other than that, the Pride Parade itself is a great place to spread awareness about what they call genocide all over the world, some of the signs are very well done and very informative. To say that they are not fighting for anything is simply naive.

The only "homosexual movement (my god, it hurts my brain to say that as if it exists)" that I disagree with is the portrayal of gay people in the media. They're all overly precocious, overly flamboyant, nixing, pampered, arrogant, juvenile morons that generate laughs off of the demise of others, right Perez Hilton? The likes of which I would avoid anywhere and I don't understand how they get on television. Thank God Ellen is around to keep the phonies in check. I wonder if that media portrayal plays a part in why straight men tend to not be fans of gay men based on that one attribute that is somehow so provocative, yet are okay with Lesbians. It is what it is, I suppose.

It's also pretty hard for me to answer the question in the OP, I'm not sure what the "gay movement" is referring to.

reply to post by Brood


Your points are noted and respected. We all have difference of opinions on certain issues and I appreciate your feedback and will further ponder my own feelings. Sincerely, I thank you.

Can one be gay and not endorse the gay movement?

Of course.

Just ask any one of the Republican politicians that wrote or supported anti-gay legislation and policies before being "outed".

- Lee

I know plenty of gay people and I can't say they share any more similarities between (either politicly, socially or ideologically) then I do with my straight Milkman or the Prime Minister.

If there is a gay "movement" then I certainly don't know what or where it is

Good example?

Ken Mehlman.
Former official in the Bush administration.

The man behind Bushs' 2004 Bush reelection campaign, and what most gays consider one of the most homophobic campaigns in history, the rallying of some very homophobic churches during his 72 hour strategy to help the GOP on election day, and quite a few other facepalm moments that make you wonder if he was going out of his way to keep anything "Gay" from being associated with him.

That is, except for those little secret parties of course.

He's recently came out.
But I guess maybe he's still a little "in"?

Ken Mehlman: The Sad Gay Republican Still Donating To Anti-Gay Candidates

A thousand bucks to candidate Ben Quayle, who doesn't believe in same-sex marriage. Sen. John McCain received $2,400; he doesn't want to let gays serve this country openly. Utah Republican Sen. Robert Bennett snatched up $2,400 for trying to keep Washington D.C.'s gays from getting marriage equality. The list goes on and on, all thanks to the newly out former RNC chairman and George W. campaign manager Ken Mehlman, whose millions in fees have all made him prosperous enough to donate cash to elect conservative candidates who want nothing more than to keep discrimination alive.
Queerty

Oh Mehlman...

- Lee

Originally posted by davespanners
If there is a gay "movement" then I certainly don't know what or where it is

I assumed he meant the "Gay Rights Movement".
There's a lot of information about that online.

The OP was a bit vague, and seemed a bit confused to what a Gay movement was.
Usually people saying "Gay movement", are talking about those pushing for "Gay rights".

- Lee

Originally posted by davespanners
I know plenty of gay people and I can't say they share any more similarities between (either politicly, socially or ideologically) then I do with my straight Milkman or the Prime Minister.

If there is a gay "movement" then I certainly don't know what or where it is.

Right. Gays are NOT a Group Think.

Its really more about Equal Rights for a minority group.

I'll answer your question with another question.

How can you be female and be against feminism?