Would a Nazi mission to Mars have really been possible in 1945?

In May 1955 Paris Agreement, the Allies, aware of the improprieties involved in their seizure of German industrial secrets, made the German Federal Government agree to renounce all claims or objections to Allied actions during the occupation:
The [German] federal government shall in the future raise no objections against the measures which have been, or will be, carried out with regard to German external assets or other property, seized for the purpose of reparation or restitution, or as a result of the state of war, or on the basis of agreements concluded, or to be concluded by the Three Powers with any other Allied countries, neutral countries or former allies of Germany.

So they just put this in the Paris agreement for fun? there are more quotes in the articles I posted before that go into more detail but according to foreign minister Molotov the USSR felt the real value of the seized information was at the very least 30 billion dollars!

In addition there is Paper Clip... and contrary to what Dereks or paraphii want you to believe it was MUCH MUCH MORE than just rocket scientists ...

Then again all you have to do is look at the mig 15 and you will know that.

I don;t know why I keep bothering to respond to people that obviously have no interest in DEBATE and are not going to admit they were mistaken in their views and or accept that things were not as they believed and integrating said knowledge into their lexicon ...

which is why I do pop on here and try to educate people and try to share the knowledge I have gained after years of frustration and looking stupid when I was just CERTAIN that things were this way or that way only to find out later that I was wrong .. but then again if someone posts something that proves me wrong I will admit it.

I guess that's the difference I'm here in a search for the truth and to expand my knowledge ... Others are here in some vain pursuit of validation by being RIGHT...

Ego and seeking answers are mutually exclusive... the truth doesn't care who holds the moral high ground or which side won the war as is applicable in this case...

Or whether it's politically correct to assert that the nazi's were anything but evil and therefore we must have been ahead technologically as well as morally and we didn't steal anything those patents we took we were just cross checking to see if they did it the same way we do... yeah that's it we just wanted to see if they did it the same... LOL

Insisting that the nazi's didn't have these projects and weren't developing a wealth of technologies that the Allies divvied up post war among themselves is as stupid as saying things like composites, transistors, and night vision were invented by aliens! It's stupid and insulting to the REAL INVENTORS.

The fact of the matter is the sheer number of projects they had going is part of what cost them the war! They were literally so intent on not producing anything but the most advanced thing they could possibly build resulting in endless change orders and each item coming off of the production line being slightly different than the last as incremental advances kept piling on.... The Germans quite frankly weren't that good at mass production they were artisans... The allies on the other hand... we built so many shermans which quite frankly were DEATH TRAPS that tiger's couldn't kill them fast enough to prevent forces getting in behind them and taking out their weaker side and rear... This phenomena and basic situation was present at every level of the war...

I'm reminded of the story during the battle of the bulge where a german pilot was downed and captured at an airfield and he gestured to the base commander saying what do you think of this, sweeping his arm in an arc indicating the destruction and burning fighters on the flight line,? a week later the same base commander brought the german pilot out of his cell and pointed at the flight line and said what do you think of this? and as he pointed the german pilot was shocked and disheartened to see Row after Row of gleaming Brand New planes where teh week before the burning wreckage had sat.

In this story the planes that landed were replacements fresh from the state that they were rushing to the front so fast that they were still bare metal not even painted!!!! Germans would not even think to do something like this! In the end their downfall was very similar to what we're seeing in the current american procurement system currently. Not only is perfect the enemy of good enough but also corruption political infighting and corruption just like the US military now. And just like the US military now is running into the unit costs and systems complexity are getting to be so crushing that non only will there never be enough of any one thing to compensate for the sheer numbers of comparable equipment that is arguably much less effective on a one for one basis the other side can field enough numbers to overwhelm the qualitative advantage easilly. Then there's the whole complexity issue and every new system we seem to get in the US inventory has record low unit readiness ratings!!
(The v-22 Osprey is a GREAT example ... it's readiness rating is HORRIBLE they are literally writing off whole airframes from the first production run) WUNDERWAFFE syndrome and Cronyism are going to be the end of us in a war just like it cost Germany world war 2.

Mars Nazis?

If people believe this rubbish then their benchmark for credible information is in dire need of calibration.

reply to post by roguetechie


Rocketry was the most obvious prize for the allies as it was the field that the Nazi’s had a clear lead over the allies – it is also well documented. I am not sure why you keep repeating the point, but I think most people agree that the allies took what they wanted from Germany after the war and benefitted from areas of Nazi innovation.

I argue the extent of Nazi accomplishment and the over-egging of that accomplishment, and that includes the fantasy of some Nazi technology where no real evidence exists – except the obligatory “artist impression” or nonsense science. It is fine saying that you would like to make a death ray or a supersonic bomber to strike at New York, but that does not mean you could do it and should not therefore be taken as fact that you had the technology to do it.

To suggest that the Nazi’s were technological superiors of the allies is preposterous. To suggest that the Nazi’s developed some solutions which were leading edge is reality and there were some real bright sparks, but the Nazi’s made the wrong choices and were not ahead in areas that were war-winning.

You cite the Mig 15 which is regarded as aping a German innovative design, although you will have noted that the engines were British who developed better jet technology. The question you have to ask is how long it would have taken the allies to come up with the swept-wing design if they had needed to. In fact, the allies were content with the aircraft they had and the air superiority those aircraft afforded them. Incidentally, both the US and the British did prototype some weird designs too demonstrating that imagination was not exclusively German.

Originally posted by roguetechie
The fact of the matter is the sheer number of projects they had going is part of what cost them the war! They were literally so intent on not producing anything but the most advanced thing they could possibly build resulting in endless change orders and each item coming off of the production line being slightly different than the last as incremental advances kept piling on.... The Germans quite frankly weren't that good at mass production they were artisans... The allies on the other hand... we built so many shermans which quite frankly were DEATH TRAPS that tiger's couldn't kill them fast enough to prevent forces getting in behind them and taking out their weaker side and rear... This phenomena and basic situation was present at every level of the war...

No, this is totally wrong. Nazi Germany lost the war because they were militarily beaten by the allies who could outstrip them in all areas. The number of Nazi development projects going nowhere within the timeframe of the war (e.g. aircraft design) was a symptom of a dysfunctional and incoherent design and development strategy. The Nazi’s made some silly mistakes in projects, but that is all with the benefit of hindsight.

Although it is true that the allies – notably US - were masters of mass production it is a crass generalisation to suggest that Nazi’s “weren’t that good”. The fact was that Nazi industry was bombed to bits and starved of resources and in the latter stages of the war relied heavily on slave/forced labour. The allied doctrine of simplicity and mass production was a key to victory as it supported a military strategy which also sought to deprive the Nazi’s of the means to equal allied production through strategic bombing and blockade. How many complex Tiger tanks did not get the battle due to fuel shortage or the lack of components?

Originally posted by roguetechie
which is why I do pop on here and try to educate people and try to share the knowledge I have gained after years of frustration and looking stupid when I was just CERTAIN that things were this way or that way only to find out later that I was wrong .. but then again if someone posts something that proves me wrong I will admit it.

Oh, you martyr. Please don’t get frustrated when you are challenged. Surely that is the essence of debate.

Regards

So what part of the harpers article that talks about everything from textile producers to aircraft manufacturers LINING up to buy the digest volumes even an hour ahead of their competitors because it could make them millions was hard to get?

as far as the nazis losing because across the board they made terrible decisions at pretty much every turn... I agree with you completely!!! As I've said before and I'll say again I don't admire the nazis or their ideology in the slightest. But I also don't like the way I see history being rewritten by the victors to paint them as anything but technologically ahead of us..... There is NO QUESTION that they COMPLETELY FAILED to GET THIS TECHNOLOGY TO THE FIELD but that doesn't mean it didn't exist!!! For god sakes they were manufacturing synthetic fuels lubricants and etcetera in underground refineries to keep their tanks running!!! We can't even get biodiesel to really catch on here!

However Germany at the time was in fact an artisan geared economy ... they built very nice stuff but not alot of it. This is all documented... same with the constant changes and etc on projects and even during production runs causing cost issues interchangeability issues and just generally slowing down their ability to make lots of stuff that was exactly the same.

Your snide comment calling me a martyr is funny considering you deliberately ignore anything that doesn't fit what you want the story to be....

YOu haven't been debating me you out of hand reject any and all proof I submit to PROVE my side of the argument and in return you have provided .... let's see here... HMM

NO SOURCES TO PROVE YOUR POINT at any point in this thread!

So yes I am feeling a bit irritated and at the same time I am all the more RESOLVED not to LET YOU preach your revisionist version of events that casts the ALLIES as morally, strategically, and technologically superior in any and every way as they try to pass off in schools these days.

I would like to see your citations about these things the allies were way ahead in... I know you've said jet engines and I have not once disagreed I even listed the flaws of the Jumo 004 turbojet IN DETAIL in the thread....

Is the reason you keep bringing up jets in any way related to that being one of the ONLY fields the allies had an edge in TECHNOLOGICALLY? Notice I didn't say logistically or etcetera denoting that I am not talking about the technology they deployed but their actual LEAD IN THEORY RESEARCH AND ETC

Which lead to things like operation paper clip... and the b 58 hustler and missiles and etc...

I would really love to see you provide some links to prove your assertions that I am completely wrong and they were really years behind in R and D except in rocketry... and further it would be nice if you could get a witness statement saying that all those engineers that had nothing to do with rockets that the OSS etc brought over were for humanitarian reasons because they felt bad for them .... not because the germans were in many fields years ahead of us.

Originally posted by roguetechie
There is NO QUESTION that they COMPLETELY FAILED to GET THIS TECHNOLOGY TO THE FIELD but that doesn't mean it didn't exist!!!

So how did they get to Mars?

reply to post by roguetechie

Originally posted by roguetechie
So what part of the harpers article that talks about everything from textile producers to aircraft manufacturers LINING up to buy the digest volumes even an hour ahead of their competitors because it could make them millions was hard to get?

I am not disputing the theme of Harper’s article per se, or the fact that the benefit of Nazi innovation was incorporated into the allied industry after the War and I have alreadysaid so. I am confused why you seem to think that this is disputed. I am not disputing Operation Paperclip.

What I have consistently said is that Nazi innovation was not over and above that of the allies. At the start of this particular discussion you cited a list of Nazi “technologies” and I noted that some were in fact of allied origin, created before the war by others, mere theory with no output during the war and bunkum.

Originally posted by roguetechie
Is the reason you keep bringing up jets in any way related to that being one of the ONLY fields the allies had an edge in TECHNOLOGICALLY? Notice I didn't say logistically or etcetera denoting that I am not talking about the technology they deployed but their actual LEAD IN THEORY RESEARCH AND ETC

This is the root of our disagreement because I think that you are wrong. You are not reviewing the evidence in asserting that the Nazi’s were all-encompassing technological masters. I reiterate and agree that that the Nazi’s came up with novel solutions and I am not going to demean or belittle their achievements, but these achievements should be seen in their correct proportion and not (as is common) over-blown and exaggerated to the extent that we enter the un-evidenced fantasy land of our imagination, as is demonstrated by the OP – Nazi mission to Mars!

Similar fantasies revolve around what the Nazi’s did not achieve “but could have” type argument or the equally silly “there’s no evidence because it has been covered up” approach, which is just an intellectual dead-end.

The fantasy technologies include some things you have mentioned as fact e.g. “particle beams”, “vortex physics” and “ball lightening type plasma” and some mentioned by others, such as “death rays”, “space flight”, “anti-gravity” and of course the “mission to Mars” OP. I have to say "vortex physics" is a term that seems to cover anti-gravity, flying saucers and anything else where the needs to be mysterious and unproven.

Originally posted by roguetechie
For god sakes they were manufacturing synthetic fuels lubricants and etcetera in underground refineries to keep their tanks running!!! We can't even get biodiesel to really catch on here!

Two different topics. The Nazi’s used coal which was plentiful and the processes were already known and they had to go down the synthetic route for fuel (and rubber) as they were deprived of oil by the allies. Failure of today’s industry to adopt bio-fuel is irrelevant but I am sure having no oil for a year would kick-start the bio-fuel industry.

Originally posted by roguetechie
However Germany at the time was in fact an artisan geared economy

I disagree. Germany was an advanced industrial nation. They churned out huge numbers of sophisticated planes, tanks and other weapons. Arguably, Germany was too late in converting their industry to full war production and the effect of strategic bombing and commodity shortages due to blockade are other elements in the equation.

Regards

Well ... as far as antigravity goes... I HATE that term.

Now what I will say is both the Nazi's and the Allies were experimenting with various so called reactionless propulsion schemas. As far as the particle beam and kugelblitz plasma goes... I have proven MY ARGUMENT correct with several different articles....

There's ample evidence of electronic propulsion research post war... now whether that's anti inertial drive electronic propulsion and or more esoteric and strange stuff I do not really know.

Beyond that you and I probably differ on some of our beliefs when it comes to science and engineering and why they teach high school kids and engineers a version of science that was already irrelevant before the start of the second world war... And they do it for a few reasons best summed up in certain technological paths are either dangerous to the paradigm we live in or dangerous PHYSICALLY in ways we are not equipped to know because of our scientific blind spots.

As per topic subject ,No!
But somebody or something was inhabiting Mars,before 1945.
Think even Tesla wanted to talk to them?.His early pre war communication systems for Interplanetary communications with whomever went back to before WW1.Dont know who he wanted to talk to?but his faith and knowledge led him to believe he had to talk to somebody There!
Think the early FBI harvested all his Tech.and datas.and other?when he died 1943 or there abouts,most all is still Top Secret.or secretly stolen?
think the Nazis,Russians and other all wanted his Knowledge .in these early pre war years?
Strange tho the US military never gave him any contracts for the war efforts,very curious,
Does anybody know if he (Tesla)worked on interplanetary propulsion systems,or any contract work for the Nazis prewar,or What was his facination with planet Mars?

reply to post by KingDoey


Yes it seems that they did have the technology to get to mars. In fact there are some very convincing images that you can find on the nasa web sites that will convince you that someone is there that's using good old fashen earth technology mixed in with some very advanced stuff. As for the technology needed to get there forget rocketry or gravitational drives etc. They most likely used a simple inertia drive that was accidentally discovered by an American citizen in the 1930's.