The two most important associations with God(s).

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools [a] despise wisdom and discipline.
Proverbs 1:7

I suppose that's a "bludgeon" from a "religious" person?

How do you know what I'm going to say? You don't degrade me by saying I belong to a faith. That's some densegeneralization you got going there.

I get sick of threads like this, so sick it hurts my heart! Lol Please make it stop! Do you want Endless Christian Threads here, or must we always be forced to answer in the somewhat antagonistic responses to athiests who have insulted our religion, our life experiences, our intelligence, our faith, and all the benefit we have found in that? If you hate God, and hate the concept of God then why do you even mention Him? Why do you not carry on in your own pursuits, roll your eyes at us, and move on? Because you can't! It's every brainiacs dream to encounter the great mysteries and somehow "publicly abolish them", and yet a child could understand God better than they. All I can offer is a perspective snap which may be helpful. Please consider how to detect if a person is Speaking in Tongues.

From what I've read, the OP didn't even suggest he hates God.

On topic, because we're intelligent beings that recognizes it's ability to create and recognize the beauty and intricacies of creation, it's only natural the idea of "God" can be born within the human mind. But coming to the realization of God can lead to the negative conception called "presumption," which possess the potential to give "God" attributes and characterizations he may not possess. "The creator is the the epitome of Good, but he turns into a sociopath when you steal a chocolate bar." In this line reason we clearly see how sociopathic this being is, and it's logical to assert this being came from a human imagination running rampant.

When humanity came to the realization of God, we can conclude they were more than likely anthropocentric, which consequent the conclusion, "ah god must be a bearded man like us." We can also conclude man was ignorant, which presumption follows.

Ignorance + Anthropocentrism leads to the conclusion God must be a bearded man that's omniscient + omnipotent, who could poof unicorns into existence.









[edit on 25-4-2010 by GrandKitaro777]

Originally posted by juveous
reply to post by MAC269

 

In many ways "God" has always been described with ambiguity - because we hold such an eminent value to the idea that - its almost as if we must sell our selves short in understanding to keep the notion of God's existence.

With that being said - what makes up God, has many interpretations and possibilities.

With that many interpretations and possibilities do you wander into the realm of omniscience and omnipresence. Whether we call it God/s or a singularity of infinite density that exhaled its density into what now be the universe, just as sure as we can not see the air we breath, (that source of existence), could we "see" God/s.

The great mythologies that have existed since time immemorial have always been here to serve as life lesson, to better instruct us on how to live. There are different types of myths, and one of those types is the creation myth. It has become, in my humble opinion, one of the great tragedies of the modern age that the word myth has become synonymous with falsehood. Such an understanding of the word does a remarkable disservice to the power of myths.

Creation myths are what offer us God/s, and it is in the Old Testament Exodus 3:14 that offers us astonishing insight into the nature of God with these simple words:

I Am that I Am

~Exodus 3:14

This is the name the burning bush speaking to Moses offered to identify Yahweh. Understand, that prior to this several names had all ready been ascribed to God, but when a name was offered from the source directly, that name was...I Am that I Am. I Am! Say it with me, I Am! Say it again; I Am! Call out God's name; I Am! Oh God I Am! I Am God!

If this be true, and I Am, then surely, by extension, You are too! How fitting that in this modern age we view the whole creation of the universe as an outburst of a singularity infinite in density that suddenly, inexplicably, spoke and with that speech, that singularity spread out as far as infinity would go. Why would God, if I Am was this singularity, choose to no longer be an singularity and instead become, as if shattering glass, where an infinite amount of shards burst across the great divide, so that this singularity may no longer be singular and know its own power experentially.

It is just an interpretation, but it is an interpretation that offers that God/s is everything, and you and I are a shard of glass from the plate of infinite glass that is God. God experiences being God through you, through them, and through me. It is an interpretation that offers we are all powerful beings made from the same stuff of God, and while powerful singularly, we are infinitely more powerful as a singularity, only as such, have no capacity to experience that, but as separate parts of the same singularity, we can experience being and know ourselves in ways we could not as an singularity of infinite density.

Originally posted by Northwarden
It's inconclusive as to how anyone should take it, and it's just as inconclusive as your open ended thread is, perhaps by way of proof that I understood your OP. It just gets kind of dull hearing the crap in some of these threads lately.

Inconclusive and vagueness are 2 different things. Your's was vague.
You mark nothing specific from the paragraph that i quoted. All i said was to elaborate - call me ignorant, it won't hurt my feelings.

Again, how is it crap? Everyone is entitled to their opinions, your's could be crap to anyone in here.

reply to post by juveous


Thanks for the kind word...of course I don't deserve any particular credit for originating that riff, as I been having that conversation with other subcultural chunks since, really, the late 1980s...it's kind of a commonplace - depends who you know I guess...I was even filmed in (an unsuccessful seldom-screened insane art film) a movie, showing me having that very exact same conversation with some people, about five years ago, already...(I had a lot of better, actually original material/bits that wound up being edited out, but that thread got left in the film)...hee-hee...

In terms of religious flavoring, of course, that bit is fairly straightforwardly satanic...the devil is bad because he wants to become God and, even worse, has the basic bad attitude that all other considerations are valueless...This is a modern repackaging but it does appeal to the same insufficiently-humble demographic...not to go all grim or anything, you know, I'm just saying...

reply to post by Northwarden


Your posts were annoying enough to this great thread that i felt compelled to respond. Just shut up if you dont want to contribute, you come off as a-hole and are giving Christians a bad name.


To the OP: I thought your post was great. Very well thought out, and you articulate these difficult subjects quite well.

What do you mean be we create? When i think of creation as it relates to God, i think of matter and energy coming into existence. Do you mean we create by our thoughts/imagination? Or that we create in the sense that we manipulate matter to form "creations"?

Northwarden:

I suppose that's a "bludgeon" from a "religious" person?

only if it is done as a means of intimidation, implied or real threat.

If someone has a faith in a 'God'/religion, why is there some need to impress someone else with or about it?

It is this whole thing about social display [not exclusive to religion &/or god].

Real faith shouldn't need advertising or promotion. It is [or should be] its own quiet, satisfying, self-contained thing.

It seems to me that the ones claiming to get great peace from religion are in fact the most deeply disturbed. That is where the need to display & foist it on others. Governments, militaries & even corporations can & usually do similar things.

Display is about arrogance & drunkenness. Like apes putting on displays. It can be very fun, or horrifying, but it is done as a violation of other people's discretions.

Beautiful, cool, steely, elegant logic, needs for very little, almost nothing.

I may not be there, but that is my presumed mission.

reply to post by juveous



I totally agree with you. We should want to understand the mind of God, but I believe that its futile. I don't want to sound pessimistic or anything, but to understand the mind of God, is to understand our existence, the universe's, and his. We will first need to know everything! And after knowing everything, we can sit down with God and have a conversation to begin to understand him. I believe that such things won't be revealed until after we become one with him again...after this life.

reply to post by Gamecock

Thanks for understanding.
What i meant by we create was just that as you mentioned.

All forms of Art are one example.

But more related to how they are related to the attributes of that we give God would be controlled evolution. - and don't let the word evolution bring about the wrong connotations.

- What I mean is, that we can pass our genes and raise our children as we see that they should be raised. You create the kind of information that shapes their lives, you select the environment in which they grow up in. I know a lot of people may think this is out of their control, but the influence from how a parent believes their child should be raised is overwhelming.

Another example would be food and knowledge. -
We harvest and contain what we eat and we know how to create the same results over and over again.
- as far as knowledge - information is all around us, we know how to create the correct kind of sentences and ways of organizing the information so people besides ourselves can understand it.

Some of these are physical creations, some are not.
We attribute God as knowing to have mastered this
- I know people that say they see bits of God's work in all that we create, and our creations are an homage to God -

I think the idea of an imagined/imaginary 'perfect self' is about as good as it gets.

You always strive to be that more perfect person,
& even as you live & learn & work your idea of perfection adapts, changes alters.

If 'God' is your imagined perfect self [subject to growth & change] it works really well. It's personal, it's intimate, it's useful.

If 'God' is the monstrous inhuman weapon you inflict upon those with whom you have become enraged, wow, disaster.

I agree with the OP. In that the age old Myth of God or Gods, is just that. A myth. In an attempt to explain things that our predecessors could not do so with logical reasoning or scientific understanding. Has quantum theory not raised enough eyebrows? While it is still THEORY, there is some solid numbers in it. The creative force which is defined as "God" can now be quantified in QM.

Not to mention, if you look back through history; which, by the way, is something that pretty much all religious fanatics LOVE to do. We can very easily see how the idea of a God or Gods changes everytime something major happens to us Humans. Would not an Omnipotent and limitless God/Gods stay the same regardless of what happens to humans? It seems to me that compared to these almighty Gods, that we would be nothing more than an ant farm experiment. So why all the change?

Originally posted by slank
Real faith shouldn't need advertising or promotion. It is [or should be] its own quiet, satisfying, self-contained thing.

Its hard to really see the motives of institutions, especially ones that have the capacity to do so much good. Nowadays people argue that a "faith" should be self-evident, and need no persuasion or temptation to join. Do they wan't my friendship or money?

It is unfortunate that history shows us that religions could easily be used to rule -
going back to the end of the roman empire, IMO out of fear, the church knew it could avoid the wrath of barbarians that wanted to rule by preaching their wicked acts could lead to damnation, or else - they could join the church and be "saved" (all the while still doing barbaric acts to everyone else!)
This gave the church an important hierarchy which would lead to royalty, eventually spreading to all classes once more people became literate.

I don't think it was until the bible was translated into many different languages, did more people learn to interpret it easier and easier - until it could be applied to everything in life. At this point, people no longer needed a priest or or chain of administers to tell them about their purpose or fate - this creates all the other gateways and sects of Christianity that are applicable for those that fit them more comfortably.

But today I don't see that fear, and I don't believe religious organizations are afraid of losing anything, except for maybe their right to speak about them. - So how do you tell someone about something important without promoting how important it is?

Lets do a thought experiment:

Your in a room with no windows and a single light that you have no access to. Just a light thats always on this room has a door with a food try and no possible means of leaving the room.

From your time of birth you have lived in this room and as far as you can remember food has always been delivered routenly, but you've never encountered another living being. You have no speech, no learning, all you have are your basic instincts inscribed in your DNA.

One day another living creature appears in your room, introduced while you were sleeping say for the sake of the experiment it was another human being with it's back turned toward you and it was eating your food.
assuming you've never learned right from wrong or proper emotional management chances are you would try with all your might to kill this individual who is violating your space.

Is it wrong to think this?

The Ten commandments and many other religious texts have told us that killing is wrong, a sin, punishable by some means of eternal suck.

How would this uneducated person know this? Is it fair to punish him eternaly for not knowing, he was protecting what was rightfuly his. No it is not.

He would have no concept of God or gods, he may jump to the conclusion that the light in his cell or the food that comes from the slot in his wall is magic, buy by no means would he draw the conclusion that God created the man who walks by and feeds him on a daily basis. Nor would he know that he was to be eternaly damned for protecting his meger sustance

God obviously is learned, but if God(s) are the creators they would have to be universal and encoded into our basic instinct to be fair. My body instinctively knows to breath and pump oxygen to my blood via my brain, why not know what god to choose? A man who's never layed eyes on a woman instintivly knows what to do with her (primal sexual instinct) though he has never been taught, why not God?

Im rambling I know and forgive the lack of structure in this but if you can bear to read through please take it for what it is.

reply to post by killacaboose


If you leave a child in a room by himself to be raised there without any social cohesion or contact with people - the child will be completely numb and mute. 0 personality and practically brain dead. Its called social isolation. and the damage is irreversible if done from birth. The child, unfortunately doesn't really know anything - at least by observing them.

We need people to shape our thoughts until we are intelligent enough to know why we were taught.

[edit on 17-5-2010 by juveous]