An Amendment to Ban Lobbyists from our Government.

Originally posted by whatukno
It's not illegal, but that person from out of state is not that elected officials constituent. The people from that representatives state are the people he/she works for, not me...

Lobbyists and special interests understand something that you have so far failed to. Whether or not a Senator or Representative is from your state their vote still affects you. That being the case, why should I not have the right to petition them?

Are you aware of how unconstitutional your idea is?
Maybe you should read the founding documents an do some research into what a lobbyist is what they do.

Wasn't something like this proposed in the Federalist Papers? Lobbying groups were referred to as "factions?" Didn't the founders conclude you can not prevent people from lobbying the govt. because it's free speech?

Maybe I'm wrong.

While I love the idea of putting an end to lobbyists it it never happen.

This is why: To end lobbyists congress and the senate have to pass the bill. And none of these politicians will give up their side pay for the good of the American governmental issues. Even if it was put to the vote of the american people and 100% of voters said no lobbyists the politicaian would find a way to shoot it down.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by Janky Red
On another note, do you actually think a living individual and a creation of business is the same? Please explain if you would...

Corporations and lobbyists are not synonymous. What you all are proposing is not allowing anyone to petition the government, stripping our fundamental rights from us, and using terms like "corporation" and "special interests" as scare terms.

Again, let me ask you, and maybe someone will finally answer instead of ranting and raving about corporations. What causes and issues do you support? Do you think they should not be allowed to lobby the government?

You did not answer my question

and please list your previous questions directed at me, I will be glad to answer

to the two above

1.The end of the private lobby and public funding of ALL campaigns

2.Well after my goals were met that would take or of it, now wouldn't it?

IMO opinion

What you all are proposing is not allowing anyone to petition the government, stripping our fundamental rights from us, and using terms like "corporation" and "special interests" as scare terms.

Nope, I am proposing that new legal DEFIN(E)itions are put into place, commensurate with reality. Laws that will combat the subversive aspects of the lobby in this modern world. The US is filled with comparable laws that restrict capital influence, as it is we
have a form of legal bribery and our legal system is perfectly capable of remedying it, without restricting constituents or not for profits.

It is my opinion THIS issue is the GRANDFATHER of all disfunction in this nation.
It creates the same conditions the forefathers intended to exterminate, where wealth
and status perpetuates power. Basically systemic corruption via bribery

This could be achieved two fold, by creating laws to prevent the access of lobbyists to politicians and /or by making it illegal for publicly elect civil servants to engage in these relations.

why are you so against it, be honest, what's your fear and motive?

I answered yours and made NO BONES

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by whatukno
It's not illegal, but that person from out of state is not that elected officials constituent. The people from that representatives state are the people he/she works for, not me...

Lobbyists and special interests understand something that you have so far failed to. Whether or not a Senator or Representative is from your state their vote still affects you. That being the case, why should I not have the right to petition them?

If you are a constituent AND acting as an individual NOT AN AGENT, you can.

If everyone follows this, the field will be level...

If an AGENT wants to petition the rep that is fine, but on his own time and dime.
Just make the penalties extreme, if they act as agents - they are engaging outside of the law.

Easy

You have my vote. I'd love nothing more than to stop the idea that government work should be lucrative. That should never be true anywhere but the military.

Did everyones iq drop from reading this lobby idea proposed?

Who in the hell do you think runs these multimillion dollar coporations? Do you know how stock holdings work?

pretty much every single business that someone has posted showing some major contributions, is the voice of THOUSANDS of people.

I own stock in say Ford, i voice my opinion on certain company aspects, in return i get hopefully more money by sound business practices. As is the same for thousands of people.

So then we hear on the news, that they want to ban something that affects my business just because they can. Now instead of a few thousand people calling in to talk to the senator, a lobbyist appointed by Ford who is run by people holding stock, gets sent to tell the government to F-off.

Why does money talk? because if your about to drop 10k on a government official, he propably thinks these things.

1) you are serious in what you want
2) probably represent more than just yourself, and the interests of MANY
3) knows that you share the same views at some point down the road.

Everyon seems to forget that we are not a DEMOCRACY.

we are a democratic republic!

the power of a few, elected by many, to voice the opinion of many.

whether that many be in the form of thousands of workers and investors represented by a lobbiest, or joe shmoe down the road with 5 bucks.

and yes 3 dollar check mark on the tax return can potentially be huge. imagine if every tax payer checked it?

people get out of the fantasy that we live in a pure democracy, we dont and i thank god in heaven we dont. why?

what is the avg iq of the USA citizen? do you really want them making all the decisions? Hell no!

[edit on 30-12-2009 by elitewolverine]

reply to post by elitewolverine


The problem is, those thousands of people are dictating the opinions of millions of people.

Let's go with your example, Ford.

Ford want's to roll out a vehicle that costs less to produce. Well the NHTSA has ruled this vehicle, (I don't know, let's call it a Ford Pinto) is unsafe. But Ford will loose millions of investor monies if they scrap the idea. Well, they just use a lobbyist to pour money into campaign election funds of various lawmakers to pass a law making this unsafe vehicle qualify for sale to the public. Ford is happy, the investors are happy, and people die because that vehicle that the NHTSA felt is unsafe actually is unsafe. But the shareholders all made a lot of money thanks to a few people who want to run things for the rest of us.

Here's another example...

Say for instance the government wants to unveil a national health care system giving every single American quality affordable coverage. Now obviously this hurts major medical insurance companies bottom lines. So the shareholders demand that they do something to stop this.

Well send in the lobbyists, they go to work spending millions of dollars scaring the piss out of everyone about the new "Public Option" while other lobbyists go to work on legislators and "influence" their vote with more money. Now the public option evil demon part of the plan is gone, what's left? The wonderful system where Every American Now Must Buy Insurance From Insurance Companies. Great for the insurance companies that now have a whole population to exploit, bad for the public at large that may see premiums skyrocket because after all, now you HAVE to have coverage.

The problem with Lobbyists is that they don't speak for everyone but a few. While our Democratic Republic insists that our representatives make the laws and vote for them themselves and not the general public. There is a part of that equation that each of us is responsible for. That part being telling our elected representatives what We the People want.

The best example of this is the bailout of Wall Street. Most of America was against the bailouts, but did our elected representatives listen to us? No, instead they decided to vote for these huge bailouts anyway. Why? Because the banks routinely contribute a ton of money to these lawmakers blinding them to the reality that most people did not want them to spend our money on failed businesses. But the lawmakers listened to the lobbyists instead of the voter and voted for this rape of our treasury.

Do you see why lobbyists are bad? Sure they are good if your part of a huge national corporation, but they are bad if you the individual taxpaying voter.

reply to post by whatukno


Banning lobbyists will not achieve this goal but term limits for Congress will. Lobbyist are just doing what they are paid to do. If term limits were imposed then we do away with career politicians. No Congressman serving more than one term in a ten year period would make lobbying a waste of money and allow regular citizens the opportunity to be elected. Term limits would stop the professional politicians from favoring special interest over the people and stop the accumulation of "war chest" for reelection. Let the general citizenry govern the country. They can only do better than these traitors we have now.

reply to post by whatukno


if a vehicle is unsafe that is a entirely different manner, what if joe shmoe wants to change district legislation that could potentially affect the community around him in a negative way? see how your example doesnt work even for the lonely little guy?

and lets not start on affordable health care cause someone is paying, and guess who it is? the people who dont have the numbers but have the cash to support them. is that fair that the majority can rule over the minority in such a negative way? thats socialism thinking. because i dont want to turn this into a healthcare debate, well leave it at.

your still turning only one company, when in fact its millions and millions of people, that take the financial risks more so than any joe shmoe that doesnt want to even check the 3 dollar campaign box.

the majority you are talking about is not always right. and because of this is why we have a DEMOCRATIC-REPUBLIC and not a pure democracy.

this whole debacle reminds me of that movie idiocracy. how many well educated business proffessionals do we have on our hands that can understand the delicacy of the economy? how many of those want to get rich no matter what (housing bubble tech bubble etc etc). At any rate the people who have no idea what the hell they are doing will always out number them.

so we let the majority vote for someone they think knows what they are doing, and lets that person make the more informed decision. If the lawmakers are that idiotic that you cant stand them, you only have AMERICAN PEOPLE to blame, not the lobbyists.

its sickening that no one wants to take personal blame, they want to point to the lobbyists and how unfair it is.

your denying companys who represent millions upon millions of people the right to voice their opinion in government, without overloading it and over bearing it. Yea i want Mr. President busy all day answering stupid questions from stupid americans instead of doing the stuff he needs to do.

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


It make sme sick to read your posts, it is obvious to me and others you are a disinfo "person". YOU need to go back and read the Constitution.

Here's the bottom line, WE THE PEOPLE elect, see the word "elect", the politicians, corporations DO NOT. The people that labor in the corporations vote, but a corporation itself has NO VOTE. They exist at the behest of the government.

As stated in the Declaration of Independence, the government "derives" it's just powers from the "consent" of the governed. See, NOT THE CORPORATIONS. From the people! Nixon gave the corprorations the same rights as the people, that was an act of treason. The unratified 14th amendment re-affirms the corporations as "persons", also unconstitutional.

Britguy and Aggieman are correct, you are not. Your arguement has no merit or weight. You keep refering to the Constitution but do not know what it means or what it is for. Because corporations are "allowed" to exist, they must abide by the regulations of the government which "the people" have the ultimate say and power. NOT THE CORPORATIONS, again.

It is this right to exist by the government and people that binds the corporations from exerting influencial power upon the government. You can not tell your parents, when you were young, how it was going to be and who was the boss. You'd have gotten your rear end whipped. This is the same scenerio, and unfortunately you don't get it. Just like most people.

Really, how hard is it to understand that the entity that allowed you to exist in the first place, can not be run by you as you wouldn't "be" had it not been for the first entity? Get it? I hope so.

But unfortunately I believe that you will come back with some bogus arguement that makes no sense and carries no weight or truth. Free speech my arse. You don't even understand that. Sad really.

EDIT TO ADD; I know that the "electoral college" elects the president and the people do not. I also know that the State legislatures elect the states representatives in washington and the people do not, 17th amendment.



[edit on 1-1-2010 by daddio]

Originally posted by Starrunner
While I love the idea of putting an end to lobbyists it it never happen.

This is why: To end lobbyists congress and the senate have to pass the bill. And none of these politicians will give up their side pay for the good of the American governmental issues. Even if it was put to the vote of the american people and 100% of voters said no lobbyists the politicaian would find a way to shoot it down.

Again the original 13th amendment. Class "A" shares of stock are not held by Americans, they are held by Elitists from all over the world, these are foreign entities which bribe and coerce "our" elected representatives. That is wrong. We the People. what happened to that? The arguements of redress of grievances and all the other ones are obviously stated by people who have no idea about government and how and why it was created. MAN created government to SERVE him, not to subvert his naturally born rights.

I will say this once. Corporations are NOT naturally born, they have ONLY the rights which "We the People" have designated for them to have. The corporations have NO VOTE, they have NO RIGHT to a redress of grievances, they DO NOT have free speech. A corporation is an entity without a soul, period. It was given life by THE PEOPLE who gave life to government to again, SERVE the people.


Please read that as many times as it takes to soak in. If you disagree, please explain in detail, point by point and make it clear.

Originally posted by daddio

Originally posted by Starrunner
While I love the idea of putting an end to lobbyists it it never happen.

This is why: To end lobbyists congress and the senate have to pass the bill. And none of these politicians will give up their side pay for the good of the American governmental issues. Even if it was put to the vote of the american people and 100% of voters said no lobbyists the politicaian would find a way to shoot it down.

Again the original 13th amendment. Class "A" shares of stock are not held by Americans, they are held by Elitists from all over the world, these are foreign entities which bribe and coerce "our" elected representatives. That is wrong. We the People. what happened to that? The arguements of redress of grievances and all the other ones are obviously stated by people who have no idea about government and how and why it was created. MAN created government to SERVE him, not to subvert his naturally born rights.

I will say this once. Corporations are NOT naturally born, they have ONLY the rights which "We the People" have designated for them to have. The corporations have NO VOTE, they have NO RIGHT to a redress of grievances, they DO NOT have free speech. A corporation is an entity without a soul, period. It was given life by THE PEOPLE who gave life to government to again, SERVE the people.


Please read that as many times as it takes to soak in. If you disagree, please explain in detail, point by point and make it clear.

nice little speach, so do you then want congress to sit down with the MILLIONS of people that have say in companies instead of listening to people that are hired by the company to speak for a collective?

in fact is that not what we do as the people by electing people into office?

to deny the same thing to companies who are RUN by PEOPLE, is to deny the right to joe schmoe to talk to the government as well.

what is the difference if one person gives 5 bucks to their elected official to help pay the bills for everything that comes with running for office, vs a 1000 people giving 5 bucks, vs a company that represents the interests of thousands giving their money too?

joe wants something out of it, his ideals brought to life, the companies want something out of it too. nothing different.

The 'soul' of a company is the people it represents. Its far from lifeless, if you thought it was lifeless, then this website is lifeless afterall they make money just like any other company. And just like any other company, they let the voices of its people be heard. If this website 'company' was lifeless and no one came here to chat on forums, this company wouldnt exist period.

Originally posted by daddio
reply to post by DoomsdayRex

 

It make sme sick to read your posts, it is obvious to me and others you are a disinfo "person". YOU need to go back and read the Constitution.

Here's the bottom line, WE THE PEOPLE elect, see the word "elect", the politicians, corporations DO NOT. The people that labor in the corporations vote, but a corporation itself has NO VOTE. They exist at the behest of the government.

As stated in the Declaration of Independence, the government "derives" it's just powers from the "consent" of the governed. See, NOT THE CORPORATIONS. From the people! Nixon gave the corprorations the same rights as the people, that was an act of treason. The unratified 14th amendment re-affirms the corporations as "persons", also unconstitutional.

Britguy and Aggieman are correct, you are not. Your arguement has no merit or weight. You keep refering to the Constitution but do not know what it means or what it is for. Because corporations are "allowed" to exist, they must abide by the regulations of the government which "the people" have the ultimate say and power. NOT THE CORPORATIONS, again.

It is this right to exist by the government and people that binds the corporations from exerting influencial power upon the government. You can not tell your parents, when you were young, how it was going to be and who was the boss. You'd have gotten your rear end whipped. This is the same scenerio, and unfortunately you don't get it. Just like most people.

Really, how hard is it to understand that the entity that allowed you to exist in the first place, can not be run by you as you wouldn't "be" had it not been for the first entity? Get it? I hope so.

But unfortunately I believe that you will come back with some bogus arguement that makes no sense and carries no weight or truth. Free speech my arse. You don't even understand that. Sad really.

EDIT TO ADD; I know that the "electoral college" elects the president and the people do not. I also know that the State legislatures elect the states representatives in washington and the people do not, 17th amendment.



[edit on 1-1-2010 by daddio]

no offense but its obvious, you are having trouble that a lobbyist represents a group of people in and of itself.

a coporation represents the people that own it.

what is easier for congress? to listen to thousands of people that have the same idealism, say stock holders of a company. or for them to hear someone hired by that company to voice for them? (ps its the same idea we have for people electing a government official)

and if your government official is that shady then its obvious the people that keep voting them in are that stupid and get whats coming to them.

reply to post by elitewolverine


The problem with your idea is that while yes the corporations are well represented the average person has no representation.

With special interest money going to our representatives, they have no incentive to listen to the voting public. If I remember correctly, corporations don't have the right to vote.

So why on earth should corporations dictate to our elected officials what to do when they have no say so over which representative gets elected?

reply to post by elitewolverine


I am not the one here who is mistaken, YOU obviously think highly of the corporate stooges. Corporations DO NOT have the best interests of their employees at hand. If the employee doesn't like it they can go elsewhere. I have experienced this first hand. And what you also don't know is that the "stockholders" mean nothing, it is the 'A' stock holders, those who have the largest holding of stock that have the say, not the little guy.

And FYI, the stockmarket is all a scam anyway, it is racketeering on a grand scale, the Elite are playing with your money and THEY are getting richer and you are not, till you cash in your stock and then you give up almost half of it. Do you think they give up half? Highly doubtful.

This goes to show what people really know about the stockmarket and how this country actually works. whatukno is correct. As am I.

I am not more intelligent than any of you, I have just been involved in the top end of corporate mangement and it disgusts me the way regular people are treated. I have told everyone I know to take their "money" out of the stock markets as it is all a scam.

If you understood the way things worked when Andrew Jackson was president and there was no central bank and no lobbyists per se, then you would get it I hope. When he left office the country had a $440,000 surplus. That's right, the country HAD NO DEBT!! I could explain how the economic system works and what gives the Federal Reserve the authority to print counterfeit "money", but would you understand it and believe me? Maybe.

Again, the Constitution was written AS a corporate document, it is the Bill of Rights that "protects" the natural born rights of the PEOPLE. If we the people were to exercise our rights, this counry would be way different. It is not about money as money is a fallacy, it's worthless paper, gold and silver are currency as noted in the Constitution. The Elite want and are taking all of OUR natural resources including our labor. They are stealing it right from under our noses and you who try to protect that are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I have posted in many threads the way to get out of it. It is very simple, once you understand it. AND THEN you have a say and they can NOT take your property or subvert your rights. But you must know the law. Shut the damn television off and research, read the federal code, American Jurisprudence and other texts relating to the founding of nations. The Magna Carte is a good one too. Some people say it is gone, only if we let it be gone, if we come together and enforce it upon our elected servants, then it survives, give up and we are all dead, get it yet?

I am still dumbfounded on why people don't understand or can not comprehend the corporate ideology. Profit first, people second, nature last. They don't care about you or me or nature, they care about the top 1% invested in the company, their friends and other corporate stooges.

Maybe I should make a thread explaining all of this in greater detail, but would you get it? That's the conspiracy.



[edit on 2-1-2010 by daddio]

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by elitewolverine

 

The problem with your idea is that while yes the corporations are well represented the average person has no representation.

With special interest money going to our representatives, they have no incentive to listen to the voting public. If I remember correctly, corporations don't have the right to vote.

So why on earth should corporations dictate to our elected officials what to do when they have no say so over which representative gets elected?

if thats the case then why should any group, coporation or not, have any say in public policy?

the average person has tons of representation. do coporations somehow buy ballot tickets? if the representative was so easily bought and did so much harm, is it not up to the people to vote him out? If the people are that stupid then they deserve what they get, what THEY vote for.

reply to post by daddio


dude your own posts even has errors in thought. even gold and silver are not currency, they are natural resources. The only value put on them is buy us, people. Just like we have put value in a currency system its NO DIFFERENT.

if you cannot get that concept then what makes you think im going to devulge into this fantasy you have about the evil of coporate greed.

hell just to put out a example, if nature was last, why would people tree farm? farming trees not only helps nature it helps the coporation more so than any non-tree farm system. Look at Norway i believe, if i remember correctly without having to look it up, there is actually more trees now thanks to tree farming than before.

your willing to horde gold or silver as a currency is nothing more than your own ponzi scheme.

its not that we dont get it, its that you fail to see that without people investing into a company, a company would rarely if at all get to the size its at. So technically its the people who give power to the coporations.

and we can talk about andrew jackson, we can also talk about how he hurt the economy more as well. Sure he brought down the debt, but it wasnt a 100% fool proof plan like your trying to sell it by far. in fact after he left office a huge depression 'land bubble' was left because of it. Now whether your on the coporate banks are to blame side or because of bad policies, well thats just up to you.

reply to post by whatukno


Won't happen anytime soon, they own Washington.

Lobbyists Buy Congress
in Top 25 Censored Stories for 2010


Source: www.projectcensored.org...
Open Secrets.org
Title: “Washington Lobbying Grew to $3.2 Billion Last Year, Despite Economy”
Authors: Center for Responsive Politics

Student Researchers: Alan Grady and Leora Johnson
Faculty Evaluator: John Kramer, PhD
Sonoma State University

According to a study by The Center for Responsive Politics, special interests paid Washington lobbyists $3.2 billion in 2008—more than any other year on record. This was a 13.7 percent increase from 2007 (which broke the record by 7.7 percent over 2006).

The Center calculates that interest groups spent $17.4 million on lobbying for every day Congress was in session in 2008, or $32,523 per legislator per day. Center director Sheila Krumholz says, “The federal government is handing out billions of dollars by the day, and that translates into job security for lobbyists who can help companies and industries get a piece of the payout.”

Health interests spent more on Federal lobbying than any other economic sector. Their $478.5 million guaranteed the crown for the third year, with the finance, insurance, real estate sector a runner up, spending $453.5 million. The pharmaceutical/health products industry contributed $230.9 million, raising their last eleven-year total to over $1.6 billion. The second-biggest spender among industries in 2008 was electric utilities, which spent $156.7 million on lobbying, followed by insurance, which spent $153.2 million, and oil and gas, which paid lobbyists $133.2 million. Pro-Israel groups, food processing companies, and the oil and gas industry increased their lobbying expenditures the most (as a percentage) between 2007 and 2008.

Finance, insurance and real estate companies have been competing to get a piece of the $700 billion bailout package Congress approved late last year. The companies that reduced lobbying the most are those that declared bankruptcy or were taken over by the federal government and stopped their lobbying operations all together. “Even though some financial, insurance and real estate interests pulled back last year, they still managed to spend more than $450 million as a sector to lobby policymakers. That can buy a lot of influence, and it’s a fraction of what the financial sector is reaping in return through the government’s bailout program,” Krumholz said.

Business and real estate associations and coalitions were among the organizations that ramped up their lobbying expenditures the most last year. The National Association of Realtors increased spending by 25 percent, from $13.9 million to $17.3 million. The American Bankers Association spent $9.1 million in 2008, a 47 percent increase from 2007. Other industry groups that spent more in 2008 include the Private Equity Council, the Mortgage Bankers Association of America and the Financial Services Roundtable.

The US Chamber of Commerce remained the number one spender on lobbying in 2008, spending nearly $92 million—more than $350,000 every weekday, and a 73 percent increase over 2007—to advocate for its members’ interests. Pro-business associations as a whole increased their lobbying 47 percent between 2007 and 2008.

With record spending on lobbying, some industries face serious cut backs and have put the brakes on spending, but have not discontinued the practice. Automotive companies decreased the amount they paid lobbyists by 7.6 percent, from $70.9 million to $65.5 million. This is a big change from prior years; auto manufacturers and dealers increased lobbying spending by 21 percent between 2006 and 2007. Between 2007 and 2008 the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which testified before Congress with Detroit’s Big Three last year, decreased its reported lobbying by 43 percent, from $12.8 million to $7.3 million. Of the Big Three, only one company, Ford, increased its efforts, though not by much: it went from $7.1 million to $7.7 million, an 8 percent increase.

Among Washington lobbing firms, Patton Boggs reported the highest revenues from registered lobbying for the fifth year in a row: 41.9 million dollars, an increase over 2006 of more than 20 percent. The firm’s most lucrative clients included private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management, confection and pet food maker Mars, communication provider Verizon, pharmaceutical manufacturers Bristol-Myers Squibb and Roche, and the American Association for Justice (formerly the Association of Trial Lawyers of America).

Update by Lindsay Renick Mayer
It seems like this should be a classified ad: “Laid off and looking for work? The lobbying industry wants you!” Since we posted this story on OpenSecrets.org in January, the lobbying industry has only continued to grow, even as industries across the board have continued to shrink, forcing hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work. This growth could be attributed in part to the economy itself—many executives are looking for some help from the government to keep their businesses afloat. Others are simply taking advantage of the opportunities that a spate of government handouts has presented. But as long as there’s a federal government calling the shots, lobbyists will be paid more and more each year to hold their clients’ fire to lawmakers’ feet.

Year after year we see increases in lobbying expenditures—in fact, 100 percent over the last decade—and the flurry of activity during the first three months of 2009 indicates that the trend won’t come to an end any time soon.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by ofhumandescent]