How did they sell religion to the masses-they invented FAITH!

Some may say that religion is the biggest conspiracy out there.

I disagree.

But when they invented faith, now that was a master stroke.

You get indoctrinated in a religion and then you begin to question. Question a little it's fine, but too much and they hit you with FAITH.

You just have to believe. If you don't you've lost your faith.

But how can it be that my deity walked the earth, captured the Sun flew into hell, etc ,etc, etc....the answer faith.

It's like a scientist only being able to prove a theory up to a point, then announcing to the world that all questions after a point will be answered, can only be answered, by his insistance that he is right.

Would you stand for that? I think not.

Faith is the biggest conspiracy out there, it keeps us in fear, it keeps us in place.

Life is like two parallel life lines. One life line is the truth. The other line is the political fiction.

And we all think we live by the truth. Which makes the life line look like one complete life line. We cant differ fiction from the truth anymore.

But if people just took some time to observe their surroundings it wont take long before they know that they live on the life line of political fiction.

But to admit that is hard and doing something about it can be dangerous.

reply to post by kiwifoot


Faith was created to better dominate the human race. It's "all" about domination, nothing else. It was also created to secure the mind, and help humans for the development of the ego. Nowadays, however, with awareness and consciousness on the rise, faith is slowly replaced by inner knowing. That inner knowing is the connection to our higher self, our cosmic self.

It doesn't matter if you believe or not, either way you are letting "them" define the topic for you. As such, you accept what they say just as much as the people you are talking about.

That's right. Believe or disbelieve and it is the same thing. Because you are accepting what they say as being the authority on the subject.

If you look in the bible, you will see that it's talking about understanding and wisdom, rather than blind acceptance. And in that way, it makes the same exact points you do. But you won't realize that as long as you do the previous, and accept them as being the authority on the topic.

It's acceptance vs understanding. Blind faith vs faith.

Check out Proverbs 8 and 9. I quote the often as they talk about this exactly.

I'll highlight a few verses, but seriously read them all in context as they say much more than I am going to highlight(can't just quote both verses completely, it'll get edited).

Proverbs 9

1Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

It's like memorizing 1+1=2 because someone told you it(acceptance) vs actually knowing how to add(understanding).

It even calls those who want to be accepted the "wicked". Read Psalm 82. Same point again. Over and over. What do you think Jesus means by "let those with ears hear?". Many can listen to those words, but only those with understanding can really hear.

Pslam 82

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

[edit on 7/9/2009 by badmedia]

I used to believe as you believe. I was actually talking about it with a friend. I used to think all these religious nutjobs simply chose blind faith and that was all she wrote.

Now, having been a Christian for nearly 6 years (I'm 30), I understand why I would believe that, but at the same time understand what is really being sought after.

What is faith?

My guess is, at the drop of the hat, you don't have responses to to quantum probability studies that mathematically demonstrate the chances you're going to fall through the floor when you get out of bet tomorrow morning due to the particles perfectly lining up in such a way as to actually suck you down. It can happen. (Obviously, it's not that common ). Yet, with faith, you step down onto that ground confident your feet are going to stop at the floor and you'll start your day.

When you're driving your car or when someone is coming to visit you, you confidently (i.e. faithfully) expect your or their arrival. Yet, from a probability standpoint, there is less than a 1 in 33,000 chance you or they will be killed on that trip. Higher, if it's a short distance.

Now regarding my faith with the Bible, it was very, very weak when I first became a "Christian". I put Christian in quotes because I didn't really know what to believe at this point. But then I put the Bible to the test. In everything I could test, the Bible always turned out to be true. Someone would point out a contradiction, and, for a while, I would wonder to myself if that was going to be the killing blow and I would have to find the truth elsewhere. The Bible had a 100% return rate. There are so many threads throughout ATS where these experiences can be read about (typically much older posts). I entered into this belief with extreme skepticism, just as some of you may have seen me enter into every other conspiracy.

Yet the Bible proved itself 100% of the time I tested it and really dug into to the information, both for and against (typically, starting with against, finding the pro-response, and then seeking a response contradicting the latest response, and so on and so forth).

So now, I have faith. I have faith that when I seek something that doesn't seem to stand to reason in the Bible, that I will find the answer. 1 in none odds are a heck of a lot higher than 1 in 33,000, but I drive the same way, expecting to get to my destination.

To use your science metaphor, I think it would be more like a scientist making that claim after doing what research he was able, and than stating that he was confident that any questions that may arise would be answerable, that the theory fits. Or do you think the flat Earth society has a legitimate claim?

reply to post by junglejake


I guess I'm in the other camp. I used to be a very devout Christian. I can honestly say at the time I had complete faith in my religion, the Bible and God.

But looking back I realise that (only for me, I'm definitely not talking for you or anyone else!) it was simply because I didn't question or probe in the right places, in the right way.

My problem, if it can be called such, is not with faith as a belief, but as a weapon against dissention. I'd rather be told 'we don't know' than be told 'You have to believe because that is what faith is'.

Oh and friend, I really don't look at religious folks as nut jobs haha!

If you only knew half of what I believe in! But in making those decisions on what to believe, I use the evidence around me, make an informed decision. Religious faith seems to me to be the opposite of that. It asks me to believe in something man made and contrived by some early Christian scholar who wanted to spread his new religion.

Does that make any sense? Edit to add does the entire post make any sense, not an in your face "does that make sense!"...just reread it sorry!



[edit on 9-7-2009 by kiwifoot]

Originally posted by spy66
Life is like two parallel life lines. One life line is the truth. The other line is the political fiction.

And we all think we live by the truth. Which makes the life line look like one complete life line. We cant differ fiction from the truth anymore.

But if people just took some time to observe their surroundings it wont take long before they know that they live on the life line of political fiction.

But to admit that is hard and doing something about it can be dangerous.

Wow!

reply to post by kiwifoot


It does make sense, and I agree (I think) about using faith as a weapon. There are people that see the manipulative potential of any religion, and strive for that power, manipulating those who may already be prone to guilt. That does not, however, make the religion wrong, just the manipulator.

The danger I see in your statement, in looking for truth, is assuming contemptible motives for that guy years ago who wanted to spread a man made religion. Already the assumption is that it is man made, so you've judged his heart to be one seeking influence and power. He may be just one beggar trying to show another beggar food, to use a cliche. For example, I've read some of St. Agustine's stuff, and he makes some amazing insight into the Bible, but there are other times I think he has his head up his... Well, anyway, the point I'm making is, judge the content. You will never know the true heart of the person who wrote it, especially if they're dead. But if a psychotic mass child killer came up with the equation that would create clean, unlimited energy, should we throw out the equation because the guy's heart condition was utterly contemptible?

reply to post by junglejake


You are right of course.

Maybe what I'm really trying to do is distinguish between a personal, spiritual faith, and a one-size-fits-all-dogma that is forced on people.



Oh I hope you read the edit on my last post! Didn't mean to be so rude!

reply to post by kiwifoot


Not to worry, that's how I took it Thanks for the consideration in reaffirming that, though

I agree with the whole dogma thing, wholeheartedly, though. One of my passions is to see churches of all denominations to start coming together and recognizing that Christ dying for our sins that we could be made blameless is at every one of our cores, and the minor doctrinal issues are so insignificant compared to that. Yet, at the same time, I still love that there are so many different modes of worship, different preaching styles, different ministry focuses out there, and seeing God use each one. My hackles go up whenever any denomination starts bashing another or starts saying we're the ones who have it right and that becomes their church's central message.

As far as Christianity goes, it is Christ, and nothing more. But I know I, personally, get more emotionally riled up (which isn't necessary, but it helps ) with a more rockin' worship music set than I do with an organ or choir, but I know people who are exactly the opposite.

However, in those situations, I'm not so sure it's faith that's the problem, but rather pride. A church leader says, "Well, this is how God connected with and connects with me, so this must be the only way God connects with His people -- everyone else must be missing something." You get a proud leader who attaches his name to God and says you must go through him, then you have faith issues, but it's faith in the teacher that is required, which is also excessively foolish.

I agree that faith is the lynchpin of most religions. Faith is literally belief without proof, and most religions require it in abundance; however, that opens a whole new can of worms.

Proof is in the eye of the beholder, and although "X" amount of evidence may be enough for one person to accept it as "proof", that same evidence may just be considered circumstantial, or coincidental to another. This creates what I call the Christian fundamentalist conundrum. Many fundamentalist's try to cite various things as "proof" of their god's existance; however, if they truly had "proof", then their faith would cease to exist (being replaced by "knowledge"), and all of the pastors/ministers/preachers I've spoken to agree that having faith in their god's existance is imperative to their respective denominations.

reply to post by junglejake


I don't think your example of quantum probability studies involving particles aligning in the floor (or anywhere else) really fit here because I don't step down onto the ground "with faith". I step down onto the ground with knowledge based on years of first hand experience and testing. Sure there's a miniscule possibility of the particles aligning in such a fashion as to suck me in, but based on years of first hand experience and knowledge I'm confident in taking that gamble.

reply to post by junglejake


Christianity, Religon and Faith in general, great concepts, perfect partners, then that pesky little bugger called the human ego gets involved!

Thanks for the input, I gotta turn in, you've given me a lot to chew over!

I hate/love that! Especially coming from an ex-believer!

reply to post by redmage


Which is the same way I, several years down the line, walk with God. Time and again I believe He's proven Himself faithful in my life. Time and again I've found that His scripture does not fail (where it can be tested, and more and more areas are becoming available every day).

The car one, though, really is faith. Next time you tell a friend you'll be there in fifteen minutes, realize, that was a statement of confident faith. You've done it hundreds of times, but you've heard just as many stories of folks who never made it.

People only start caring about Religion and faith when they first learn about Death.

Young kids could care less about religious tradition or ritual. When you tell them that if they get hit by that car while riding their bike they will die and you explain death to them they get scared shirtless.

Telling them that dying means they can never ride their bike ever again and will lose every memory they ever had of riding a bike or what a bike ever was is a PRETTY HUGE selling point for an afterlife and religion.

Tell them that if you believe in this certain from of religion you will die but you magically get transplanted into an afterlife where you can ride cloud bikes and play kickball and never skin your knee is no choice at all when put alongside rotting in the ground and never riding a bike EVER again and forgetting you ever rode one.

Faith > The Truth for death any day of the week. It is only when you believe in no afterlife that you treasure every single second of life because you do not believe you live on forever in a heaven or a hell.

When compared to Atheist belief of an afterlife eternal damnation and punishment in hell looks good compared to rot in ground, memory banks completely wiped out, nothing for eternity.

Hmm All I know is that religion, in centuries gone by was pushed on people rather than sold. Take the Isle of White for example... In around 680 Christianity was introduced but those who weren't interested were branded pagans and killed, hundreds of poeple not wanting to accept Christianity were killed. I know this is not a single event either.

this is why i love ats,,,, just your thread title got me thinking a bit


like u kind of said or infered,,,,

who was that first guy,,,, who told that first story and got the other to believe it???? then another and another


and why did he do this????


was it just like an "old wife's tale" or like a rumor-----how it will just take-off and takes on a life of it's own and spreads like wild fire???

was it started to explain death and make it something not so scary ,,,, and make it seem good, not scary,, and would put people at ease


an answer to an unanswerable question that may have seemed plausible


and it help spur kindness, nonviolence, good faith and love to boot,,,, not a bad side effect at all,,,, a way to keep people in line


for me,,,, when 38,000 innocent children starve to death every day,or horribly painful childhood illnesses, i have to wonder why a loving god would allow that,,,,


or i sometimes wonder if this is a result of sinful man that this is occuring and we will ultimately pay a dear price

depends on my mood and what day you catch me


good thread

reply to post by junglejake


I'm glad you've found comfort in Christianity. Many people find their lives happier, and more fulfilling when they're involved with their respective religions.

I agree it could be argued that when you make plans to get together with a friend a bit of "faith" may be involved, but I don't see the relavance of that to the faith required in many religions.

...I had a nice long piece written here about the car example, but it finally "clicked" for me, and it seems a bit irrelevant now. :doh:

The main reason I don't see your examples as fitting is that they're all based on predicting future events. Will the floor support you? Will your friend arrive? One's "faith" in these is based on knowledge of said friend's record of punctuality, the low odds of an unforseen car accident, and upon years of experience personally walking on floors.

With most religions one is required to have faith in past events. Take Christianity for example. Sure denominations may differ, but things like the faith that one's god existed/exists, that one's god created the earth in 7 days, that Mary was virginally impregnated and Jesus was the result of that imaculate conception, and instead of evolution Adam was made of dirt and Eve from his rib. The list goes on and on. Christianity, and many other religions use faith in past events in order to predict future events; that's quite different than basing predictions of future events on vast testing, statistics, and physical evidence.

If one has faith in past events such as Mary's immaculate conception, faith in heaven's/hell's creation, faith in a judgemental god, and if one lives a "good" life, then they get to have the faith that they'll be rewarded in the future by going to heaven, or that their "enemies" will be punished in the future by going to hell. Basing predictions of future events upon faiths in the past (instead of basing future predictions upon physical evidence) is how religions use faith as a control mechanism, and a VERY powerful control mechanism at that.

Now, if only we could get all of the religions to finally agree that intentionally harming another person is wrong, then we'd be set!

[edit on 7/9/09 by redmage]

I don't think faith is a conspiracy at all. It has been with humankind since the dawn of time, since we have questioned the universe around us and not necessarily had immediate answers.

It's not a conspiracy, rather it is simply a phenomenon of human existence.

To rail against it is to rail against a part of us, as a race.

Pointless, in my humble opinion.

I went thru 'faith' in God. Not from a church, or even a religion, but absolute faith in God to allow me 2 small things. And what happened?

NOTHING.

Wait- that isn't entirely true. While the outcome I was so sure of didn't happen- I also got to be tortured endlessly for my 'faith'- which, 20 years today is still going on. I wouldn't believe Jesus now if he showed up in my living room, and brought me an ID. I question everything. I do not believe anyone at their word any more. Not God, not man. I even cast doubts when my cats decide they want to be petted- I suspect an ulterior motive- "Sure, you can pet me, but you'd better feed me/ clean the litter box, etc!"

What I HAVE noticed is if you have money, and you have family, you get fruits from your faith. If you're poor, and you're alone on this planet, you don't get 2 craps and a fart from God.

Spiritual retards do not know how to discern between "Religion" and the New Birth of spiritual enlightenment that Jesus Christ offers. In this thread I guess that faith is now the culprit, but as blind as you are concerning history or why Christianity turned a pagan world upside down, it was not mere "faith" that did it, it was a savior that could not be held in His tomb, it was the healing of the sick and the raising of the Dead that got people's attention and a life that the pagan world had nothing for which to compete with it.

Christianity has lost it's power, but it was built on the power and the life of the Son of God, a Living God and a faith that changes the life and makes alive a spirit that is held in a state of retardation.