Proving the concept of heaven is illogical in less than ten seconds.

For us to understand what good is we have to experience bad, cold worm, true lie, ext, and ext.
In heaven there suppose to be no suffering at all, how then anyone could know that life is good or the honey is sweet ext, ext? What does the word life means if there is no death?
I presume the only one way is that the spirit must be conscious and have collective memory on his/her life on earth for reasons,
1- So that the spirit is in fact related to the person who died on earth.
2- So that he/she could realize in fact that life is good in heave.

Remembering suffering in itself is suffering to a degree.
I rest my case.


[edit on 22-2-2009 by nawa jaf]

[edit on 22-2-2009 by nawa jaf]

You have to constantly take drugs that tell your mind your belly is full and all is good all the time. In other words, it's junkie heaven.

People believe that there must be a heaven because of the suffering that we see on earth.

I believe that there's a heaven that's better than earth because my God told me. Take a gander at Revelation.

reply to post by nawa jaf


Um... Didn't you just shoot a big hole right through your own logic by giving an example of how heaven would be possible? The transfer of senscience thing at the end. Yes Yin, and Yang are universally true. Read the Tao Te Ching for better perspective on such matters. How again did you disprove the existence of heaven with two logical statements that help reinforce the concept of heaven, or did I miss something? If we are primarily a spirit, connected to a body through a soul, then yes we would remember everything that happened to us throughout our existence, and would therefore have the perspective to appreciate heaven. This is a paraphrase of your logical statements at the end. How does that disprove rather than make a case for heaven's existence?

There you said it, we must we remember everything that happened to us throughout our existence, and would therefore have the perspective to appreciate heaven.
Remembering suffering in itself is suffering to a degree.

Another 10 second thread?

I stopped reading at 10 seconds. Sorry lol.

If there is a heaven it might not be like this world. Everything we've heard about it may be an abstraction for something we can't understand. I'm not saying it is real, but I will share some thoughts I've had in the past about it.

In a heaven you might not be human anymore. You might be a spiritual being or made of light. You might not even be three dimensional anymore. You could be 2D or 8D or not even have a dimension. You won't know what it's like until you get there. That's the way humans are. Like skydiving. I could talk to you for 100 years about skydiving, but you won't really understand it until you go skydiving. You may even claim skydiving doesn't exist or is not logical! Could just be a photoshop right? We don't have pictures of heaven. No wonder we can't understand it. We actually HAVE pictures of September 11 and we're still trying to understand that! Of course trying to understand an existence with an entirely different set of physics is going to be illogical to us. That doesn't mean it's not real. It just means we can't comprehend it like I can't understand why you would jump out of a perfectly good airplane.

However, a spiritual being may not have that problem. They may understand this world fairly easily simply by visualizing it in perfect detail. They may be able to time travel to see what really happened, or they may be able to be everywhere at once. When they say God is always watching you. Maybe that's symbolic for, he already knows what you're doing so he doesn't even have to look. If they could visualize that well then they would see heaven was good.

However, a spiritual being might not even be concerned with if heaven is good or bad. That sounds weird right, but think of this. A lot of fear and worrying can be traced back simply to our fear of dying. Imagine how different this world would be if we weren't afraid of dying. Just for starters I'd have a lot less canned goods stashed in my closet. I'd have a lot less fear about my government. I'd probably be more patient with people. If I can't die, and you cant die then why worry about it? This may be how the dead think. So, maybe that's why heaven is perfect. Not because it's good or bad, it's just that nobody cares.

And would they want their memories? In a heaven, even if it were perfect, could they be haunted by things that went wrong here? Something or someone they did wrong in the past or that did them wrong while they WERE alive? Maybe they're better off without memories.

Also, if you assume there's a God, well he knows everything right? EVERYTHING! When one goes to a friend's house to watch movies then if the friend already owns the movie you probably wouldn't take your copy too. He's already got a copy. If God truly knows EVERYTHING then I wouldn't need to take my memories. A true God may already have copies for me there. Also, heaven would be for eternity, FOREVER! I can't even remember where I left my keys last night. How long would you remember even if you had your memories?

Now I personally believe we don't go to "heaven". I believe in something like a new earth paradigm, but that's another topic.

reply to post by tinfoilman


Like describing colour to a blind person. Like describing chocolate to someone who has never tasted it. Like describing music to who has never heard it. etc etc

I hate dime store pseudo-intellectuals. Think real hard now.....

Originally posted by nawa jaf
For us to know what is good we have to experience bad, ...

The very first sentence contains a logical flaw. Can anyone see what it is?

[edit on 22-2-2009 by sir_chancealot]

I think the skeptics need to give up on these ten second debunking attempts.

I cannot defend the concept of Heaven as a whole but from the Christian angle we are told:

1). God will wipe every tear away from our eyes.

2). The former things will pass away (but I am not aware of anything mentioning a 'memory wipe' of 'the bad').

3). Heaven will be so incredible that our human minds cannot conceive it (it is so much more than hanging around on clouds for all eternity playing harps).

4). There will be no more death, disease, loss, sadness, etc.

So none of the above implies we won't remember it at all therefore I have no idea what the following is supposed to mean from the OP:

For us to know what is good we have to experience bad, cold worm, true lie, ext, and ext.

We will have experienced the bad and will only appreciate Heaven even more due to this fact. It would be like someone enduring a terrible past but enjoying a beautiful future. You appreciate it even more.

I believe in the new earth paradigm also, and it is actually backed up in scripture if you dig around, and peel away the layers of man's jacking around it to make it a "smoother" read.

You confuse experience with knowledge and you have neither concerning Heaven. You should have learned more before you spoke. I suggest you reopen your case.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


Yup, that's the basis of it. Pretty much sums it up