experimentation based exploration system

This is in reply to: www.abovetopsecret.com...

@Zepherian:

Even though a one on one, face to face discussion won't be possible, is there still any experiments that I or other members of this board can conduct?

I won't reply to the rest of the post because it clearly disregards what I have said twice now. For now, we'll just focus on this main topic.

This post is going to seem wishy washy for a left brain thinker, but I urge people to consider the implications thoughtfully before going into the standard "you're delusional" type responses.

1) A word about faith: if you are going to experience something you have to believe it is there. This dosen't mean you will experience it. If it is not there you won't. What this does mean is certain things will not be experienced without prior acceptance to the possibility. When it comes to exploring the limits of consciousness, when it comes to exploring a deeper fractal level of yourself you need to believe that such a think exists, or it seems to me that you'll never activate the right neural or perhaps energetic pathways that open these realities up. Faith, or belief to use a more neutral word, does seem to be a key, an access mechanism.

2) Sometimes people see things others can't. If you have activated higher levels of yourself, you will be able to see auras and energy manifestations others can't. I suspect there is a physical side to this, possibly dna activation and celular reconfiguration. But the truth seems to me that once you have the faith, the belief that you can change your being, that you can uplift yourself somewhat, then that change becomes possible. Others that have not gone through this process will not be aware of the changes you see. A bit like using a telescope to do nuclear magnification, they just won't be equipped for it.

3) You are a system. You will not change on thought alone. What a person eats and drinks, how intoxicated said person is, is very relevant in how much success a person will have with spiritual or transcendental "research". We have a natural biochemical spectrum which we function best at, but sadly modern technological society has polluted our environment to the point where it's nigh on impossible to get there. Not only that but our group mind, our culture, has been polluted to the point where we can barely remember where "there" was. Whether this was a natural regression or done by design would be another thread, but the fact is finding our higher or energetic selves is hard because our base self, or biological being is so far out of whack it dosen't function properly. So each one has to work hard at getting back to an old paradigm of health if to hope to transcend into other realms.

4) The 3 points above are conjecture from my own personal experiences. They are not the be all and end all of spiritualism, just what I extrapolate from my own incomplete path. I am not your messiah. I have not found God. I mearly have become somewhat aware that there is another fractal level to myself, that in some way I interface deeper with the cosmos than I used to think possible.

These are good points to start the thread off with, anyone who wants to add something is free to do so, I will post what experiences have made me see things like this, what has "worked" for me so to speak in a slightly later post.

Cheers for the thread sirnex.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by Zepherian]

reply to post by Zepherian


1) Is there any correlative evidence, or experimentations conducted that shows the occurrences of faith systems having the ability to change neural pathways and genetic structures to such an extent that it can create new abilities?

2) Given the possibility that forming a faith or 'strong belief' in something like an aura, how would faith in this go about in changing the genetic and neuronal structures in order to adapt the eyes into being able to see these subtle energies?

3) What research has been done to show the proper nutritional, mental, and physical health practices are needed to lead one back onto this 'right path' of transcendentalism? In retrospect, what research has been done on the effects of modern society as an impact on transcendentalism and how detrimental it is to it?

4) From your experience in this faith system, have you picked up any knew skills such as: telekineses, telepathy, aural vision, astral projection, remote viewing or an ability to converse with animals.

I ask in all seriousness, so I expect a serious answers.

1) I've seen some serious studies out there, but do look for them yourself. This sort of study is not mainstream science, so it hits a dogmatic wall and tends to not get widely published. Not only that it seems to dissapear readily, as it is probably occult knowledge, ie in the sense that it purposefully kept secret or low profile.
I don't really need the studies, like I said, it's an individual process. But if you do, look more thouroughly and you may find some, yes. If you want a book to read around this subject, try My Big Toe by Thomas Campbell. I admit to not reading it, yet, but I heard a radio interview with the author and think he may be on the right track.

2) If you're an energy system as well as a biological system it stands to logic that some sort of energy manipulation could be needed to expand one's individual abilities and awareness. Thought is energy, electricity in the neurons. It could be a two way relationship, where energy changes the neurological makeup, or possibly even the dna. The frequencies of your thoughts could have bio feedback. Ressonance is a possibility. Again, I do not know exactly how, but I do know subtle changes do happen. Perhaps even not so subtle changes for people who are more advanced down the path of self awareness.

3) The research of that is your problem. Anyone with common sense and some life experience knows that traditional living and old style foods are healthier than the process crap that gets us down in a modern western diet. Anyone who has tried yoga for example knows it has positive aspects, both physical and mental. More commitment to this sort of life style does yield more results. Having trained martial arts, at the extreme levels of training I have heard stories of wierd paranormal experiences, for example. Research isn't really needed, this is part of our global self, our culture, our volksgeist. But again, if you want studies, need them to justify taking such a path, look around and they will pop up, I am not your library nor do I have an agenda to turn you into buddha, that is your decision and it dosen't make that much difference to me either way Again, if you want a book that showcases this somewhat, try The Secret Life of Plants by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird.

4) I have picked up slight aural vision, the ability to see energy fields around plants under some circumstances, I have tried telepathic contact with otherworld intelligences through meditation, with some puzzleing results (ufo overflight) and I have had some very brief OBE, but only in dream states. I also have increased empathy slightly, but this one isn't really indicative and could be psychological I guess. Through the use of the Solfeggio frequencies I have improved my health and the health of those around me, both humans and animals. Through meditation I have also seen some patterns in direct sunlight which I was unaware of previously, which to me seem like they can be part of the basic geometry of nature. Like you see a diverse phenomenolagy, some of which with external verification. I have had other experiences, but I chose not to share those, as a matter of personal privacy and also because they are not clear enough as to their nature for me to speculate on them.

Regarding 4) let me add one thing before you overstep my goodwill: I have no need of you debunking any of the above experiences either out of natural skepticism or a hypothetical agenda. They are personal experiences related as such, without going into too great a detail, on purpose. They are mearly a witness testimony of what can happen and not intended to prove anything to anyone. Proof is not my burden here, regardless of the rhetorics of the burden of proof, I reject that. All I am doing is saying, if people chose this path, things do happen. If people prefer cold hard science, that is their choice. The two areas do overlap somewhat, but I am not the one doing the overlapping. Every individual is responsible for his meditation, for his truth seeking, do realise that.

Regarding 1), 2) and 3), this is all personal speculation. I am not aproaching this as science, mearly experiencing it. True explanations may vary. I however doubt that it fits in a reduccionist explanation like "psychological delusion", which are convenient for the debunkers, but which fall short of true informed skepticism, which has to take into more complex manifestations that don't fit into the classic scientific paradigm unless it's expanded upon.

One final comment about science: there is a pattern to science, imo. Science tries to formulate a concrete explanation that englobes a certain phenomenon, trying to explain it in it's entirety, in relation to a physical system model. The problem is I am becoming more aware of reality as a multi layered fractal with phase changes, and science is really usually only usually functioning at one layer of the fractal, which explains why so often good and complete mathmatical based models find experiments that totally disprove them or change the predicted results forcing an expansion of theory (newtonian physics and speed of light is an example). This is the sort of mindset that should be present when expansion of conscious awareness is undertaken. A belief that there is more out there, because as I have aluded, without an open mind it seems unlikely that people can reach the frequencies required, be in mental frequency or the frequency of physical actions, like eating a healthy meal for example, to reach a slightly higher level that starts opening up the nature of reality more to them. Again, if you want a book on this, try Chaos by James Gleik.

This is very much a critical mass sort of experience imo, After enough reading, experimentation and chance, life naturally opens itself up to the accepting individual. Just have fun and don't fear.

Cheers.

Number 1: There's not really any evidence that it changes your genetic makeup at all. Although certain virii have the ability to change the DNA of your cells. For instance 'Severe combined immunodeficiency' has had some successful trials using genetically altered virii to alter the genetic makeup of patients. Cases of this happening as a result of an effort of will do not exist however. Radiation CAN cause genetic mutation, but the chances of you becoming the hulk after being hit by an Atomic Bomb are, I'm sure you're aware, rather slim.

As for changing neural networks, there is of course evidence that certain practices change the structure of the brain. Meditation has long been shown to promote growth in the Hypothalimus and increase awareness in practitioners. Whether this equates to the 'uncovering' of supernatural abilities has not been established. There are numerous studies that show a statistically significant result for things such as PK and ESP however this is in trials of many thousands of attempts. No-one has been able to levitate themselves under lab conditions yet. The correlation between meditation practitioners and, possible, increases in the success rates in Parapsychological experiments hasn't yet been tested. As far as I'm aware. If someone could reference me any such studies I would be more than happy to look at them.

If there is any hiding of studies relating to this nature, which to be honest, there isn't much evidence, it is because most of the studies have less than favourable results. This means that it is the believers who discount the studies as they do not match what they expect the results to be.



Number 2: Again, for genetics, I don't think it can so any mechanism is beyond me, as well as current science. Perhaps electro-magnetic forces created by the nervous system could effect them in some way? However this still would not account for how one would be able to manipulate these systems to acheive a certain effect. Neural pathways are constantly changing all the time anyway. The brain has an enormous amount of plasticity and ability to adapt to new stimulus. Just consider how you are able to learn to drive, or speach spanish. Presumably use of psionic powers would work in the same way, practice makes perfect. Unfortunately I cannot elaborate on the exact means by which neurons are linked as I havn't covered that in my course yet. :p



Number 3: As for the nutritional, mental and physical practices? This doesn't really fall that far out of mainstream science. Optimum nutritional diets are all about the place, not too many carbs, unprocessed foods, enough fibre, low sugar/salt intake etc. Chances are you'll get this info on the next public health advert. Again with physical practices, excercise regularly, get lots of cardio, stretch muscles to help prevent damage, you know the drill. Mental practices work in much the same way, as I noted above meditation has been shown to have beneficial effects on the body and brain, but there are all manner of other things you could do. Start speaking a new language, do the crossword each week, and as much as I loathe them, brain training probably has beneficial effects.

Also I'd like to note that I did find a study that shows religion is beneficical to health www3.interscience.wiley.com... google scholar should turn up lots of stuff if you're looking for info. Or go to your local University library, they'll be happy to help.



Number 4: Although I'm not trying to diminish the validity of above's claims. I would like to point out that by taking '___' I would be able to cover all the above's ability's PLUS some new ones such as looking into alternate dimensions, talking to God, and running from the reptilian gremlins that suddenly become 'visible' to me. :p


Sorry and all, I'd like to believe more than most, there just isn't the evidence to support it yet.

Actually you listed a fair bit of evidence.

A sideline on the '___' thing... what do you suppose could really be happening? Look at it this way, '___' provokes halucinations and OBE's, etc, so science puts it down to a drug intoxication. But what if the drug is actually opening up the persons brain to a deeper awareness, to a point where there is overflow by a sudden leap in consciousness that they cannot properly process?

Or to put it short, sometimes science describes processes without actually understanding them or their consequences fully, which is why, while I enjoy science, I find the general scientific mindset of "we've explained that" somewhat arrogant, especially in the cases where they really haven't.

I haven't tried '___', or even plan to, so the example was arbitrary and hypothetical, but I trust you understand my point.

[edit on 15-8-2008 by Zepherian]

reply to post by I3LiP


I was just about to bring up these 'chemical' altercations to the brain which can cause one to experience all of the things many 'enlightened' individuals describe seeing in one or another transcendental state.

It is not news to anyone that many brain functions are the result of chemical interactions between nerve endings and synapses. It is quite easy to administer certain chemicals to ahieve certain mental states, such as Ritalin or laughing gas or even Ginko Biloba. Our brains partly chemical computers and as Zepherian has pointed out, our modern diets are so polluted with toxins that it is near impossible to achieve pure mental clarity.

However, what is this mental clarity of which you speak in the absence of chemical toxins? The brain is full of chemicals that are produced at varying degrees throughout life, what is the truly unadultered state? And if we accept that chemicals that are produced naturally within our bodies provide us with any 'real' objective perspective on reality, then we cannot rule out the possibility that the administration of any number of mind-altering substances also provide objective experiences of reality. The obvoius example is '___'. Can it provide a true window to what is experienced? If we accept that our body's chemicals provide lucid observation, then we must accept that '___' possibly does too.

Either that or we are forced to accept that many of our experiences are merely subject to certain chemical consistencies in the brain.

Yes, the ghost in the machine theory is always a hypothesis. I guess it comes down to whether energy comes from matter or matter comes from energy, and if said energy is consciousness as many speculate.

Try and connect and find out for yourself, I don't really know of any scientific experiment that can prove this autonomously, as science has an odd way of coming up with more questions than answers

This then boils down to the argument of how do we know when we're dreaming?

Reality is by its very nature a purely subject experience and philosophers have battled with the question for millenia. Personally I don't think it's a question that CAN be answered definitively.

I therefore am forced to base what 'reality' is by this state of mind I experience currently and the general consensus as what constitutes as reality.

"I see a blue sky with a green tree below, what do you see?"

"I see a blue sky with a green tree below as well."

"Then that is reality, the sky is blue and the trees are green"



This kind of basic logical processes break down when you take psychoactive substances.

"I see a purple sky with a red dinosaur above it, what do you see?"

"I see a rainbow lollipop dancing the tango with a three legged elephant."

It becomes impossible to have any consensual definition of reality in these cases. Reality is therefore either subjective based on your personal experiences, or the perspective of other 'sober' people who you trust to provide you with an accurate description of what the real world is like, and that, infact, it hasn't been overrun with waltzing cupcakes.



I think it's important for people, and I think this would appeal to ATS members in particular, to take such psychoactive substances as it allows for a certain perspective on reality to be gained. How can you know what sanity is if you have never lost your mind?

Originally posted by I3LiP

I think it's important for people, and I think this would appeal to ATS members in particular, to take such psychoactive substances as it allows for a certain perspective on reality to be gained. How can you know what sanity is if you have never lost your mind?

Unfortunately this thread will be soon closed if you speak too directly about illicit substances. Nevertheless, I think it is a genuine argument that everyone must be forced to confront in the 21st century. Since the dawn of time substances have been consumed to attain certain mental positions, in fact it is my belief that without psychadelics religion, or spirituality would not have existed to the extent that it does within the human population.

Few people will agree with this, but it is very difficult to have a 'spiritual' or religious experience during a sober day, an experience that cannot be accounted for by chance or belief based on prior belief.

[edit on 15-8-2008 by The_Modulus]

I can't comment on substance use, since I don't knowingly use any substance with the intention of increasing my awareness, I would like to try '___' sometime, perhaps in mushroom form, but I suspect there are other ways to get to the same place.

I suspect it isn't as black and white as losing one's mind, it could just be a bad connection for example. Think of it this way, an uprepared, unbalanced body is thrown into a new consciousness by an exterior agent... could not that be considered insanity?

Likewise, is the life most of us live, in agression to nature, really sane?

We need to ask some pretty big questions to make sense of the underlying topic of global consciousness, and some of them are all but confortable, especially to an establishment serf as some people may be, knowing or unknowingly.

Originally posted by Zepherian

I suspect it isn't as black and white as losing one's mind, it could just be a bad connection for example. Think of it this way, an uprepared, unbalanced body is thrown into a new consciousness by an exterior agent... could not that be considered insanity?

Likewise, is the life most of us live, in agression to nature, really sane?

unknowingly.

Are you saying that there is no balanced body, no unadultered state of consciousness and that everything is in some way subjective to the consistency of our biological composition?

I would not have a serious problem with such an assumption, we may indeed all be experiencing reality in different ways, in fact I'm sure we do, which is why you and I have different opinions, have different lives. We experience reality in a subjective way, sometimes with greater incongruence than at other times.

But my question is, how can we ultimately perceive reality in its true form if it is at all possible? If a spiritual experience on '___' can be as 'real' as the experience of love, what is the original stimulus that exists in reality which causes these perceptions?

What I'm saying is subjectivity and objectivity dance together, like yin and yang

Dance with them.

I think we are forced to dance with them every day in our conscious reality. It is the interface between consciousness and reality of which yuo speak. But what can we use outside of our consciousness that can give us an objective bearing on this thing that is reality. For the universe surely exists, and it surely is a constant existence (consistent existence rather). Is consciousness completely arbitrary?

Well, what is objectivity? Is not subjectivity arithmatic? If you need to see things in an objective way you need to tune your subjective observation with the subjective observations of the group mind and go with the numbers, hoping that the majority isn't mystaken

Originally posted by Zepherian
Well, what is objectivity? Is not subjectivity arithmatic? If you need to see things in an objective way you need to tune your subjective observation with the subjective observations of the group mind and go with the numbers, hoping that the majority isn't mystaken

However as we've pointed out this is not true objectivity, merely consensual subjectivity.

And so the spiral continues.

True objectivity might not really exist, Objectivity with a capital o might only be a layer of the fractal, subject to phase shifts like everything else.

And further down the rabbit hole we go.

Does it really matter if it does or not. We live from a subjective experience and so any objectivity is merely an abstract concept. Regardless of the objective reality of the situation, we still feel pain when hurt, joy when pleased and any other number of experiences.

The 'truth' of any matter has no bearing on how 'real' it is to us.