Terrorists have done what they set out to do, whats next...

With the collapse of the Spanish government after leading heavily in the polls before the elections I just have to say that the terrorists are alot smarter than I have given them credit for.

I have thought for quite some time that Al Queda and binny boy have just tucked tail and hid in a hole somewhere but I have been so wrong. They have been biding their time and waiting for the exact right moment to strike and thats just what they did. They have cost the US one of its biggest allies in the coalition of the willing. They won this battle.

Makes me wonder about the future will there be an attack days before the US election? I don't know for sure but all I do know is that I underestimated them.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said: "The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster."

Do we really know it's Al-Qaida? The Islamic tapes, along with the detonators were a very convenient find. Also, the fact that they were named as the culprit after such a short time makes me wonder.

I don't think it really matters which terrorist group did it they were very smart to do it.

The Islamic tapes, along with the detonators were a very convenient find. Also, the fact that they were named as the culprit after such a short time makes me wonder.

Second Hijacker Passport Said
Found On Street Below WTC!
rense.com...

GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT IN TERRORIST ATTACKS
Attack on America: Controlled Chaos for Global Dehumanization!
Resources --www.infowars.com...

Did the spanish government really fall? It looks to me they basically went from republican to democrate in this election.

Do we know if they do polling as the US does and if so is it as accurate (insert smartass comment here) as ours is?

In other words, could they (the conservatives) have lost even without the attack? If not what was the margin? The polls talked about on news shows the big difference was the socialist were against the war in Iraq as were the majority of the people in Spain.

I just don't see terrorist as winning, they just elected the other party which they may very well have done w/out the attack.

The Conservatives tried to mislead the Spanish people by not revealing that they had evidence it was Al Qaeda and instead saying it was ETA.

Why?

Because if it was ETA then the election would have been influenced in the opposite way.The only difference is that Americans would have been happier.

It was said that Spain would be a safer place after the Iraq war.This was wrong and as it has caused the deaths of 200 Spaniards I think it's only right that the Conservative Government should fall.Afterall,as was said elsewhere,90% of Spaniards were against the war.

With a record turnout this is democracy at work.

Hopefully it will be Blair next.

according to reports, about 90% of the spanish people were anti-war so the war itself was undoubtedly a major factor in the election. also, it wasnt specifically the terrorist attack that changed spanish opinion but the way the government immediately blamed eta without any substantial proof. indeed, the british government has said today that the thing they will learn most from the election is that it is vital to speak accurately in the aftermath of an attack.

but then the british government would never lie about something as important as that would they - the hutton report said so.

Did the spanish government really fall? It looks to me they basically went from republican to democrate in this election

I completely agree that the Democrats in the US are Socialist.

I just don't see terrorist as winning, they just elected the other party which they may very well have done w/out the attack.

As I've already said in another post. The "conservative" government in Spain had cracked down heavily on ETA previous to coming on board the coalition of the willing. They had Al Queda people in Spain as well; several meetings in Spain involved a suspected suicide pilot on 9/11. They also arrested several Al Queda people in Spain after the attack. This was all prior to Iraq. It's interesting to note that Britain and Spain have both been the victim of home grown terrorism previous to 9/11 and were likely to have a deeper understanding of the threat terrorism causes. Aznar's party was, by all accounts I have read, likely to win the election. UBL and ETA both had grudges against Aznar even before the war in Iraq. To say that UBL and ETA did not "win" here seems to brazenly overlook the obvious. The bombing was a well planned and executed attack. To deny that it was calculated to sway popular opinion against the ruling party...

As with any event of this sort you must look at who benefited and who did not. The terrorist had time to think about this for a long time. You can bet they are all very happy with the outcome and those against them are not.

Variable


[Edited on 15-3-2004 by Variable]

John Bull is right in saying that the spanish government cost themselves the election by trying to use the bombings for their own political gain. They thought that the truth of who carried it out wouldn't be widely known until after the election, and claiming it was ETA would gain them support for their hardline stance.
That tactic back fired dramatically, and rightly so.

by Variable
I completely agree that the Democrats in the US are Socialist.

You've got to be kidding. There is no viable left wing party in the U.S.

U.S politics are invariably conservative. What the U.S considers even ultra left wing the rest of the western world considers moderate or slightly left of center. to everyone else the democrats are still mostly conservative in their views. Sadly American politics have always been to the right, thats why the democrats seem to Americans as left wing when they're only right wing lite.

You know whatever you believe about spanish politics or the war on terror............Believe this - the terrorists just learned that they cansway an election in a direction desirable to themselves, that is scary.

I think thats the point we are missing here, regardless of the real reasons why the vot turned out how it did, the terrorists will see this as a major vitory, and incentive to do it again. It may really be no ones fault, just a consequence of the political atmoshpere in Spain. These groups will basicly latch on to anything they can to keep on fighting, and I guarantee you they see this as an event they helped create. Thats the real issue, not the actual vote or wether it was right.

I really can't see how anyone can say this an example of terrorists manipulating the outcome of an election unless the terrorists knew that the Spanish government would lie about ETA being responsible, but then get found out just before voting commenced. It's insensible.

The Spanish government didn't do anything but get reamed by UBL.

John Bull is right in saying that the spanish government cost themselves the election by trying to use the bombings..

laughable on the face of it seeing as how they had no time to create a political gain. Assuming they had anything going on politically after getting hammered like that is inane. The first day they found the van with the arabic tapes and the day of the protest outside their headquarters they arrested several muslims. How you can deduce they tried to make political gains from that I have no idea. They were treading water from the start.

You've got to be kidding. There is no viable left wing party in the U.S.

What do you mean? Your comparing American politics to who? France? China? Yes, compared to them our left wing politicians are not that far left, but thats is ONLY because they would never be elected to any office. Given their druthers we would have a country like Germany or France, 10-15 percent unemployment, bad health care and bad teeth, huge government. The only good thing about that happening would be that millions who try to get into our country every year may stop trying. That would be something.

By Variable
laughable on the face of it seeing as how they had no time to create a political gain. Assuming they had anything going on politically after getting hammered like that is inane. The first day they found the van with the arabic tapes and the day of the protest outside their headquarters they arrested several muslims. How you can deduce they tried to make political gains from that I have no idea. They were treading water from the start.

Stating it was ETA was the first thing they did, pretty much immediately. Having the people believe that it was; was the only thing they had to do to create gain. They thought that because their policies where hard line against ETA the people would rally round them as the ones to rid them of the threat. There was hardly time to draw breath before anything, before the elections crucially so. The Spanish Government could not have known every revelation that would have been made in that short time. Basically the government thought the peoples thought process would be - ETA, bad but this government is hard against them and will raise the stakes, the opposition are more likely to soften the stance. The irony is they were afraid of the small amount of (extra) votes they would lose from people opposed to the war who would take the 'I told you so' stance. By trying that they lost the election.

They gambled, and lost.

What do you mean? Your comparing American politics to who? France? China? Yes, compared to them our left wing politicians are not that far left, but thats is ONLY because they would never be elected to any office. Given their druthers we would have a country like Germany or France, 10-15 percent unemployment, bad health care and bad teeth, huge government. The only good thing about that happening would be that millions who try to get into our country every year may stop trying. That would be something.

I think I said Western country, as in 'western' society. That's the whole of Europe, Australia, Canada etc. It's pretty much well known. In any other similar system there is usually a clearly defined left and right. In America It's only shades of right.

Originally posted by kegs
I really can't see how anyone can say this an example of terrorists manipulating the outcome of an election unless the terrorists knew that the Spanish government would lie about ETA being responsible, but then get found out just before voting commenced. It's insensible.

Im not saying that at all, thats not even my point. Im saying that the terrorists will see it as a victory regardless of what the real facts are, or what their intentions were(although the fact that the bombings occured only days from the election may prove their intent). They will say to themsleves "look the socialist who were going to loose the elction, suddenly won, and it was because of our actions and Alla's wil"
A delusional statement yes, but what about them isn't?

I wasn't taking about your posts specifically, but the general assumption that this outcome was somehow engineered by the terrorists.

I will start by giving the crudest definition of Appeasement :
Feed the raveneous lion, so you may hope he eats you last.

Actually, I prefer Ben Franklin's more positive way of looking at it:
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.

I have carefully read all the posts above and finally, everybody is beginning to NOTICE that
the world has turned ugly. Let me summarize the discussion.

10 March - Ruling party projected to win national elections.
11 March - Attack on Madrid
12 March - Mourning for the victums. 11 million people march in sympathy.
13 March - The day of reflection, mandated halt to political campaigning by the constitution.
The socialist party mounts demonstrations countrywide, blaming the ruling party for the Madrid Massacre, calls for Peace.
14 March - The ruling party lose to the socialists.

Now I am gonna make a rare statement that I will NOT back up. The Al-Qaida reaction
(via certain websites) is definitive and crucial. (Surf them at your own risk, I dont give links for
my enemy) They believe they had a victory. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend)
This is very bad juju. Many underestimate the enemy. But do not over-estimate them
either. This was a gamble, not a calculated outcome. I disagree with John bull 1,
totally here. This is not democracy at work, but a "how to" attempt at swaying the
WAY democracy works. Al-Qaida created an "opportunity" and the socialists put power before democracy.
So, to continue feeding the lion, or try to eliminate it?
Choices are getting grim.

/\/ight\/\/ing

I see terrorism as a warning for times yet to come, times when even darker forces will test our resolve. We can either stand up now, or have everything be swept away be fear.

We can either stand up now, or have everything be swept away by fear. == TheEXone

You are correct. As with most things, fear and apathy get better with practice.

/\/ight\/\/ing

They gambled, and lost.

I don't know it sounds like a your assuming a whole lot and The Interior Minister did say he thought it was ETA but, your over looking the important fact that all proof contrary to that view were released by the same government. You can't have it both ways. The Spanish government officials I saw speaking on CNN and FOX all said they did NOT know who was responsible.
Here's a relevant quote from typicallyspanish.com

What is seen as the poor handling of the terrorist attack by the Interior Minister, Angel Acebes, harshly blaming ETA for the attack when later evidence was to show that it was Islamic extremists who were responsible. The opposition and media seized on this, accusing the government of a lack of transparency and even of lying to the Spanish people. The people responded and the Partido Popular is no longer in power.

I think the key to this, is the part about the opposition and media. Maybe you have some kind of socialist leaning and therefore buy in to the spin set forth by the opposition. I mean it is hard to be honest and say they were trying a cover up when they were the ones releasing the ammunition the opposition used against them?! That is spin my friend.

Variable