Chemtrails: A Rational Debate

There are a lot of threads on ATS about Chemtrails and I apologise for starting yet another one. However, despite sometimes getting off to a good start, almost all previous threads end up in an endless round of

"I say they are chemtrails"
"Well I say they are not chemtrails"
"Well I say you're wrong"
"No, I say you're wrong"

Albeit in less civil terms.

So lets see if we can break the mould and have a serious, rational debate on the subject. Anyone can join in but please provide wherever possible some supportive evidence for any assertions you make and avoid ad hominem attacks either on other posters or on the authors of papers or websites being quoted from.

I'll kick off with a summary of my position on the subject:

I maintain that most if not all photographic and video evidence of what is purported to be chemtrails actually shows normal contrails, other high level clouds and associated natural atmospheric phenomena.

www.cloudappreciationsociety.org...

I think many people are (not unnaturally) unaware of the processes behind contrail formation.

cimss.ssec.wisc.edu...

www.cloudappreciationsociety.org...

I find that all visual evidence appear identical to normal contrails, high level clouds and associated natural atmospheric phenomena as described since before WWII and studied in particular since the 1960s when the occurrence of persistent contrails first began to cause concerns with regards their effect on climate. See, for example Airborne Observation sof Contrail Effects on the Thermal Radiation Budget by Peter M Kuhn, 1970

I also maintain that the increase in persistent contrails due to greatly increased air traffic in the past 2 decades is cause for concern with regards possible climate effects (and indeed the fact it makes the skies much hazier)

www.sciencedaily.com...

I fully accept that weather modification takes place in a number of countries including the USA. However since this involves spraying silver iodide into pre existing low level clouds in order to induce precipitation - and by it's very nature would not normally be observable from the ground, nor likely under any circumstance to produce the appearance of contrails, I maintain that this is a wholly separate issue, and whilst possibly of concern is unrelated to the issue of chemtrails. Such activity is most certainly not in any way secretive.

I accept the possibility that military/govt agencies may be engaged in some spraying activity for a variety of purposes but am unaware of any evidence for this and maintain that if it were happening it would not manifest itself in the form of persistent contrails.

And so I open the floor to reasoned debate

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Essan]

I request that the moderators close this thread, there are already at least two threads running on civil terms about chemtrails, and there is no direct insult, although peoples motives for posting are being questioned, in civil terms.

If Essan has more to add about chemtrails the other running threads should be room enough, otherwise it's just another soapbox thread.

Ignoring those who which to derail a serious debate, lets look at the other side.

One of the chief proponents of the chemtrail theory is Cliff Carnicom. I personally find his website difficult to navigate and much of it concerns the issue of Morgellon, a peculiar disease that afflicts some people in the USA and which some claim is a direct result of high level chemtrail spraying. I find the fact such disease does not seem to occur elsewhere where chemtrail spraying appears to take place, and the fact such spraying is observed to take place over sea as well as land, makes the connection a little dubious, but it cannot immediately be over-ruled as a possible unintentional consequence.

There is a detailed summary of chemtrails, plus a wealth of links to other sites and news stories on the Educate Yourself website. This site promotes the possibility that chemtrails - which appear to have started to be observed on a regular basis in the late 1990s may be intended to affect peoples health, perhaps as some form of population control operation. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of people falling ill, often with 'flu like symptoms, after seeing chemtrails sprayed above their towns.

Further info about chemtrails can be found at the Chemtrail Datapage on Jeff Rense's website. On this page this is, for example, a typical observation made by James from |Exeter in England:

James from Exeter said "I agree 100% with your views and conclusions. I have taken digital camera pictures of these unmarked aircraft spraying overhead, sometimes as many as thirty or more aircraft in a very short time, spraying in a grid pattern it seems, and have looked up some mornings to find an X marks the spot in the sky overhead - looks like a St. Andrews cross. I have a large pair of binoculars 80 x 20's , but even with these there are no markings on these aircraft. I have seen a couple of aircraft with what look like extra tanks under the fuselage. So, yes we are being sprayed. I'm so pleased to see someone that is voicing the concerns I've had for a while now

On being contacted, govt agencies invariable dismiss such observations as just being normal contrails.

It is notable however that until the late 1990s, people simply did not notice such things.

Other evidence comes in the form of such things as the now notorious Space Preservation Act of 2001 which

To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons

Those who drafted this bill (rejected 3 times by congress and now dropped completely) included chemtrails amongst the weapons they wished to see banned. Whilst this does not in itself prove chemtrails are actually being sprayed on a large scale, it does indicate belief that such activity can be carried out for military purposes and used as a weapon.

I'll finish up for now with a link to Andrew Johnson's ChemtrailUK website

www.chemtrailsuk.net...

This is not just a US phenomenon!

Essan, If your going to to have a serious rational discussion thats great.

I participated in my first chemtrail thread as your aware recently. I suspect , it won't be a rational debate by page 3. There are too many weather experts and pilots who pride themselves on their area of expertise. I find points raised go ignored then have to be repeated endlessly. And then they are dismissed as silly. One only has to read your signature line to know what they have to look forward to it terms of your brand of rational. The burden of proof is on the believer and it quite simply a hard thing to prove at present definitively. I don't have the energy for another go. This is why you likely see chemtrail threads come and go. All the while many people like myself know intuitively that they are very real. What I came away with today was

1. Particulate could be added on the exhaust side, not in fuel.(I had a real problem with aluminum going through a jet engine) there are patents on this technology dating back to 1974. Please don't dismiss this as sky writing technology.

2 It is not clear to me just how long this particulate stays in the upper atmosphere. this is an important question to me. If it is more than a day you can see that there is a definite cumulative possibility.

3 The spraying of people and the spraying of the atmosphere I suspect is done separately.

4 I believe haarp type weapons are also complemented/strengthened by
spraying.

Cheers Friend

Originally posted by Zepherian
I request that the moderators close this thread, there are already at least two threads running on civil terms about chemtrails, and there is no direct insult, although peoples motives for posting are being questioned, in civil terms.

If Essan has more to add about chemtrails the other running threads should be room enough, otherwise it's just another soapbox thread.

reply to post by Essan


I will bite buddy.

As someone that watches daily aerosol atmospheric infusion I would like you to prove me wrong.

Please tell me why I don't see countless untraceable flights violating FAA laws. Piggie backing each other, flying DIRECTLY over TPAK, MacDill AFB while spewing day in and day out.

I am sorry, but waking up to chem hazed skies daily when applicable, while no flights are tracking over Tampa is quite concerning. Please ask me about watching the little sputter spray pattern turn on while flying into a defenseless cloud. This cloud immediately attracts water vapor turning it black and downpouring from what its once innocent self. Ask me about the jets flying directly N/S over the Gulf beaches obscuring the sun day in and day out.

Weather modification, Aerosol saturation and whatever unknown agendas ARE taking place. Anyone in touch with self, nature and life will know this already.

I would offer you a free ticket and housing to see for yourself but I question your connections and ability to suspend these actions.

CON and TRAIL is synomonous these days isn't it.

Please tell me why I don't see countless untraceable flights violating FAA laws. Piggie backing each other, flying DIRECTLY over TPAK, MacDill AFB while spewing day in and day out.

1. As long as the aircraft are 1000 feet apart, vetically seperated, then there is no problem.

2. There is no restricted airspace around MacDill AFB. Closest there is, is Lake Placid MOA which goes upto 18000 feet so it doesn't really matter.

skyvector.com... Search KMCF.

What other 'countless' FARs are they breaching? How are they untraceable? What methods did you use to test this?


[edit on 15/8/2008 by C0bzz]

Originally posted by utmostbastard

Please tell me why I don't see countless untraceable flights violating FAA laws. Piggie backing each other, flying DIRECTLY over TPAK, MacDill AFB while spewing day in and day out.

The fact you don't see such thing perhaps suggests they don't happen. I'm confused as to what you want to prove/disprove here?

I am sorry, but waking up to chem hazed skies daily when applicable, while no flights are tracking over Tampa is quite concerning.

What makes you say no flights are tracking over Tampa? I understand that Florida has some of the heaviest air traffic in North America?

For example (reference to NE Florida): cat.inist.fr...

Maybe someone has data on the number of commercial airflights over Florida per day? I would guess in the thousands (given around 7,500 cross the UK a day).

Please ask me about watching the little sputter spray pattern turn on while flying into a defenseless cloud. This cloud immediately attracts water vapor turning it black and downpouring from what its once innocent self.

Not entirely sure what you mean?

Ask me about the jets flying directly N/S over the Gulf beaches obscuring the sun day in and day out.

Any reason to assume they're not normal commercial aircraft?

Weather modification, Aerosol saturation and whatever unknown agendas ARE taking place. Anyone in touch with self, nature and life will know this already.

No-one questions that. But such activities take place at a much lower level and physically cannot produce the phenomena many claim to be chemtrails - ie persistent contrails/cirrus clouds. Unless you can produce evidence to the contrary? After all, when making an assertion the onus is on you to support it.

I would offer you a free ticket and housing to see for yourself but I question your connections and ability to suspend these actions.

My passport expired 10 years ago. And frankly I don't want one of these new 'European' passports and especially not one with all the biometric data they seem to demand these days. I'd rather stay in Britain. And in any case, by flying over I'd be complicit in causing 'chemtrails'!

Don't like 'chemtrails'? Don't fly!

Took this photo this afternoon. It's what those 7,500 flights over the UK do to our skies when they fly through humid air ahead of an Atlantic frontal system. Still, I suppose it's an easy way of predicting rain!