Could myths about "trolls" be referring to Neanderthals?

Modern science accepts the fact that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons lived in Europe at the same time for several thousands of years.

Growing up reading ancient Myths from different cultures around the world, it struck me recently that the Norse had quite a few stories about "trolls and giants" and I have been wondering if it could be possible that these myths contain some grain of truth.

Certain myths, such as the "flood myth" occur in so many very widespread cultures, from the Middle East all the way to North America. This made me start to wonder if it were possible not that a world wide flood occurred, (which we should be able to find some evidence for) but rather that these stories had actually been passed verbally for thousands of years and that they actually traced back to one local event when the human population was very small and before the great migrations began.

In fact, there are lots of common elements in the myths, but "trolls" seems pretty localized. (I could be wrong, but as far as I can tell) These tales seem to be most highly concentrated in the geographical areas where Neanderthals COULD have been seen/interacted with by Cro-Magnons, and this makes me wonder if it is possible that these myths could have been passed down for some 30,000 years. That would put a whole new spin on the ancient myths if it were possible. They might hold historical information instead of just "stories."

Thoughts anyone?

I think you right, a lot of myths and legends are based on real events. Over the centuries the tales become more and more grand due to the re-telling of the stories from generation to generation.
Embellishing true life events to make them better "camp fire tales" is only human, it makes the stories more interesting.
So yes I believe "trolls" were Neandertals.
The stories just got changed over time and now the only place you find trolls is in story books, but 12,000 years ago we could have ran into each other while hunting and gathering.
Imagine that! It would be us like seeing a caveman in the grocery store today, and if we have had only limited contact with these cavemen it would be quite a shock!

reply to post by BroonStone


If it were true, that stories had been passed verbally for that many thousands of years, can you even imagine how old the event must have been that gave rise to the flood myth? It is much more widespread, and thus, must have occurred BEFORE the Cro-Magnons moved into Europe and met the Neanderthals. (if it were not a global flood, which is unlikely due to the lack of evidence for such an event)

Moderns trying to "prove" the flood myth could have happened are not looking back far enough, if that is the case. For example this study places the event somewhere near 5600 BCE.

paleoglot.blogspot.com...

According to William Ryan and Walter Pitman in their book Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About the Event that Changed History (1999), the Black Sea was once a freshwater lake that suddenly and violently filled up with salt water from the neighbouring Mediterranean Sea sometime around 5600 BCE, causing the lake to drastically rise and turn into a connected "sea". He adds that all the flood stories of the Near East are somehow a memory of this major event in prehistory. My immediate impression is: "Yeah, right. Tell me another story".

Makes me want to go take another look at the myths and see what else might be hidden in there that refers to events/creatures that lived 30,000 some odd years ago.

It's a good theory - one I personally like. Plausible, but alas not a new theory:

In the genre of paleofiction, the distinguished Swedish-speaking Finnish paleontologist Björn Kurtén has entertained the theory (e.g. in Dance of the Tiger) that trolls are a distant memory of an encounter with Neanderthals by our Cro-Magnon ancestors some 40,000 years ago during their migration into northern Europe. Spanish paleoanthropologist Juan Luis Arsuaga provides evidence for these types of encounters in his book, The Neanderthal's Necklace (El collar del Neandertal, 1999 ). The theory that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons occupied the same area of Europe at the same time in history has been theorized based on fossil evidence. Other researchers believe that they just refer to neighboring tribes. The problem with this theory of Trolls is that there are theories and evidence underbuilding that bigger areas in Europe and the Middle East were inhabited by these two groups at the same time. Encounters can have happened due to nomadic tribes and long distance hunting, etc. Nonetheless there are no coherent research showing a phenomena or histories of "troll-like beings" in all these places reducing the post facto of Neanderthals preceding Trolls as nothing more than faintly plausible for the beholder of today.
Origin of the Myth

More:
Wikipedia


The debate continues today. There are even the extended theories that surviving Neanderthals may explain Bigfoot/Sasquatch/Wild Men sightings. Would love to hear what ATSers think.

Hmmmmm........ bigfoot could be a neandertal? I have often wondered about bigfoot and what they might actually be, it's a plausable theory.
In this day and age I can't wholely dismiss ANY theory on bigfoot, due to the lack of real evidence, the troll idea included of course.

Hmmm. I never though of the bigfoot possibility, but I guess it certainly could be the case that they are surviving Neanderthals. (If they really exist at all) I sure wish we could find some hard evidence of them, bones, hair, teeth, etc. Now that we have the Neanderthal DNA sequenced it would be possible to find out.

There are several interesting threads on ATS about Giants. And my favorite thread of all time The Rainbow Serpents is all about searching for truth in myth. We could sure use your help over there Illusions, and anyone else, if you are studied in myths.
As for trolls, I never really thought about them being actual creatures, but it wouldn't surprise me really. They found the small pigmy people. I am not sure what they are called, but I find that facinating.

reply to post by seagrass


Thank you Seagrass, I didnt know about that thread I will take look at it. I may not be able to help much but I bet I will learn a thing or two.

You know what? You may have something there...legends are based on something, sometimes we know what, sometimes we don't.

Sasquatch, though? I don't think so, but I've been known to be wrong, sometimes on a fairly frequent basis...

Originally posted by BroonStone
Hmmmmm........ bigfoot could be a neandertal? I have often wondered about bigfoot and what they might actually be, it's a plausable theory.
In this day and age I can't wholely dismiss ANY theory on bigfoot, due to the lack of real evidence, the troll idea included of course.

Actually I thought Bigfoot was the Gigantipithicus Blacki. The ONLY Primate to go extinct in the modern era. Originally from China(Yeti!) but could have come across the land bridge into America. The GB is big enough to be Bigfoot and really the only explanation that seems plausible. Well, and this one. Beats the aliens theory or interdimensional travellers.

reply to post by Krieger


I had never heard of that primate. I am going to have to go google. Thank you for bringing that up. I am sure I am not the only one unaware of that species.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander



Think "super gorilla". The guy was huge. If I remember correctly, somewhere between 7 to 8 feet tall, correspondingly broad, and around 500 lbs. Big ole boy. By all indications, bosai was vegen, before vegen was cool...

Go here - Click on "Hominoids" and watch the videos.
He describes one that is about 4'+/- and stocky built that could be the "Troll".
troll

its possible that bigfoot might be a neanderthal. After all, from my knowledge all we have found were skeletons of them. Why must the appearance of them be so human? We know their skeleton structure, but we dont know what they truly look like.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Hmmm. I never though of the bigfoot possibility, but I guess it certainly could be the case that they are surviving Neanderthals. (If they really exist at all) I sure wish we could find some hard evidence of them, bones, hair, teeth, etc. Now that we have the Neanderthal DNA sequenced it would be possible to find out.

Havn't several people found bigfoot hair ??

Makes a lot of sense.

Man back then was hairy and quite large in a lot of cases. Perhaps this is where the Bigfoot mystery originated from as well?

there was a period when neanderthals and cromagnon coexisted but this was not in europe. The evidence now points that when cromagnon entered a new area in europe permanently neanderthals were already gone for a thousand years or so. However before neanderthals started getting extinct there was a period of about 10k years where they could have met in the middle east and central asia afaik.

I can't believe I have never made the connection! I think that's a very good guess!

Originally posted by Krieger

Originally posted by BroonStone
Hmmmmm........ bigfoot could be a neandertal? I have often wondered about bigfoot and what they might actually be, it's a plausable theory.
In this day and age I can't wholely dismiss ANY theory on bigfoot, due to the lack of real evidence, the troll idea included of course.

Actually I thought Bigfoot was the Gigantipithicus Blacki. The ONLY Primate to go extinct in the modern era. Originally from China(Yeti!) but could have come across the land bridge into America. The GB is big enough to be Bigfoot and really the only explanation that seems plausible. Well, and this one. Beats the aliens theory or interdimensional travellers.

Neanderthals were also said to be wiped out by modern man, maybe they learned how to avoid us and if theyre related to Bigfoot, maybe this would explain Bigfoot's elusiveness.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

I had to chuckle. My first thought when reading your thread heading was 'Wow, you mean we've got Neanderthals here on ATS'?
Ok, it was funny for me...

Beyond that I think you've got the 'forrest for the trees' conclusion going on. Great theory, I like it! S&F!

reply to post by OhZone

Thank you for the video link, that was pretty informative. I enjoyed the listen.

peace