China protests Tibetan independence

www.reuters.com...

Under no circumstances can citizens from another country protest the independence of another. This is nothing to be enthusiastic about. This is outright arrogance.

Tibet decided to utilize one of the world's largest televised sporting events to spread its message. The Chinese have no right to feel betrayed, although they are probably embarrassed.

Free Tibet.

[edit on 19-4-2008 by cognoscente]

I'm wondering if this was a real protest of a mock one by the Chinese government?

I find it quite silly that they would even do such a protest, its not like France can do anything about French protesters, they are allowed to protest whatever they like that's why they live is a reasonably free country.

reply to post by cognoscente


We are talking about the coutnry with people that talk endlessly about reunification with an island that states they have no wish to be "re-unified".

But most of us call it conquered and reconquered.

But, ah, semantics.

LoL!

reply to post by WraothAscendant

Many countries face secession problem, Britain, Spain, Canada, turkey....
Of course in future, when China becomes strong enough, we will provocant
the separation of USA. good luck.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
We are talking about the coutnry with people that talk endlessly about reunification with an island that states they have no wish to be "re-unified".

So they voted in a president with policy of eventual re-unification with a MASSIVE majority and gave the former president massive embarrassment by not even meeting the number of voters need just to change the countries name ?. Sounds really like a country which wants independence!

reply to post by gs001


*sighs*

People like you sap any optimism I have for the future of the human race.
All you want is bloodshed while calling it "right".

[edit on 19-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by cognoscente
Under no circumstances can citizens from another country protest the independence of another.

Cough "1861" Cough


So which country recognizes Tibet as a country? . Oh, maybe we should consult the Tibet spiritual leader?

Tibet part of China: Dalai Lama

theage.com.au

Accept Tibet as part of China: Dalai Lama

Link




DENY IGNORANCE

reply to post by WraothAscendant

bloodshed is not good
I hope in future the separation or collapse of USA will not be bloodshed.
good luck.




[edit on 19-4-2008 by gs001]

reply to post by gs001

when China becomes strong enough, we will provocant
the separation of USA

Which means war as it isn't going to happen otherwise.

Speaking of which I find it extremely telling that China thinks that every bit of land that it's owned since the middle ages is RIGHTFULLY theirs, which serves to keep them a huge country. But every other country. Well they must give all land back. Divide and conquer rings a bell.
A good thing such obviously uneven thinking isn't communicable.

reply to post by gs001


"Many countries face secession problem, Britain, Spain, Canada, turkey.... "
As painfully scary as it was, Canada held a referendum in Quebec regarding secession. The vote was to stay together.
Would China ever allow Tibetans to vote on the matter? Of course not!
That is the difference between a society that values individual rights and one that has no concept of it - only the notion of a "larger good" of the "motherland" - of social control and "stability".
We shall never understand one another - our values are just too different.

reply to post by wayno


I would suggest to the chinese people to boycott america and american goods. What about Germany and the U.K. I feel a little left out, my efforts are being snubbed. I guess I'll just have to pick up the pace.

Originally posted by wayno
That is the difference between a society that values individual rights and one that has no concept of it - only the notion of a "larger good" of the "motherland" - of social control and "stability".

So the United Kingdom "peacefully" formed itself or the Irish wanted to join?. How about the confederates?.


The Tibetans have set a real precedent, now minority groups around the world in countries hosting large events will have to deal with extremely disruptive protesters. The olympics dont belong to anyone and the Tibetans or anyone else doesn't have the right to disrupt the games with their problems. Most people couldn't care less about them

Natives threaten Olympic disruptions


OTTAWA, WINNIPEG -- Native leaders are warning the 2010 Winter Olympics will be marked by bridge blockades, airport disruptions and Internet campaigns if they don't see significant progress on aboriginal poverty and land claims by the time the world turns its attention to the Vancouver-area Games.

"The world is coming to visit in 2010. The message that's provided to the visitors that come to Greater Vancouver for the Winter Olympics depends entirely on how the province of British Columbia and the government of Canada address our issues," Mr. Kelly said.

David Emerson, the federal Conservative minister responsible for the 2010 Winter Games, urged all would-be dissidents to "think twice about contaminating that opportunity for all Canadians to present themselves to the world."

He said protests could ruin Canada's showcasing efforts.

"It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity for Canada to assert itself on the global stage, to show where Canada has been, where we are going and present ourselves to the world in a way that causes people to respect what Canada and Canadians are all about. And any kind of negative activity like that detracts, and could somewhat contaminate, the impression people get."

www.theglobeandmail.com

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by wayno
That is the difference between a society that values individual rights and one that has no concept of it - only the notion of a "larger good" of the "motherland" - of social control and "stability".

So the United Kingdom "peacefully" formed itself or the Irish wanted to join?. How about the confederates?.

The English originally tried to forceably occupy Scotland, Ireland & Wales etc. However it didn't work, eventually we did form an alliance and that eventually turned into 4 counties ruled by one government (we are separate countries btw), N Ireland for the most part doesn't want to separate from the UK and that's there choice, If they did want to separate, that is also there choice, this is something people don't have in China.

why the Irish btw? there's like a few hundred countries Britain controlled at the hight of its empire and I should mention most of those countries got there independence because they wanted it and received it (though likely with some opposition in parliament).

Originally posted by Edn
However it didn't work, eventually we did form an alliance and that eventually turned into 4 counties ruled by one government

Thats what eventually happened after many wars and the slow integration of society between these areas. As I understand it, history has not finished being written and eventually when China develops into a more free society like Korea, Taiwan that Tibetans will eveutally accept it as being part of China just like the scotts, the aboriginals, the Native Americans etc . The Dalai Lama has already voiced his opinion about the ownership of Tibet and that he thinks its beneficial for Tibet to remain a part of China

Britain controlled at the hight of its empire and I should mention most of those countries got there independence because they wanted it and received it (though likely with some opposition in parliament).

White washing history much?. The UK had just finished WW2 as a diminished power and was in no position to reassert its ownership on the colonies. They had made a deal with the Indians for their help in order to gain independence. The colonies were going to get independence anyway and the British were in no position to stop them so they relented and eventually "gave" them independence which was not theirs to give in the first place

reply to post by chinawhite


If Canada dealt with the issues of Native poverty and land claims head on then the protests would not happen is the unintended message I am getting from the article cited in your post. That would then be a real example to the rest of the world would it not? Instead of bemoaning the spectre of protests smearing our (false) pretty image, why not get busy and do something real about solving the issues?
I am in no way clear about what the solution is to land claim issues that go so far back, and that have to do with unscrupulous deals hammered out then, but trying to deny the issue and sweep it under the rug is not the answer. We only invoke anger in doing so. I am not one for spoiling a party, but the Olympics is not exactly a sweet and innocent thing just for the athletics either, so lets not be so teary eyed.
I think disenfranchised people have to use whatever means they can to get their issues dealt with because governments and tax payers just won't listen voluntarily.
Your own comment about "nobody cares" is example enough.

Originally posted by wayno
why not get busy and do something real about solving the issues?

One reason why the Tibet issue is so complex is its interconnected with religion and the Dalai Lamas status as a god-king to the Tibetans. The American founding fathers were very sensible in the sense they split religion for politics for the main reason as weeding out a privileged class (my view). What the Lamas or "Lords" want is a autonomous Tibetan province with them in charge governing more than the western notion of Tibet. They want the whole region of "historical" Tibet which houses close to 100million or so Han Chinese which have been living there for hundreds of more years than the Tibetans. Thats not negotiation or being resonable and thats why China cannot deal with the Tibetans, imagine the precedent that would set for China. Shanghai might want to break off because its to rich or that American operations in other regions of China intensify and they want independence.

What most westerners dont understand is the period of Chinese weakness where China was divided by the west into semi-colonies which they exploited at the whim of a pens stroke. A divided China brings outside aggression and what China experienced with the "warlord" period and 100 years of humiliation still affects Chinese policy makers

I heard this off a movie but when you bluff you have to be holding all the cards sometime

but the Olympics is not exactly a sweet and innocent thing just for the athletics either

I believe it is. Its just that countries and grounds use it as an opportunity to showcase themselves to the world. Friendly competition brings countries closer to each other. If you can remember seeing the South and North Koreans marching as one country even through they are ready to go to war at a blink of a eye would been some pride for the Human character

Your own comment about "nobody cares" is example enough.

I said "most people couldn't care less" not "nobody". The amount of Pro-Olympics easily outnumbered the Tibetan protesters which traveled as a group across Europe to disrupt the Olympics

reply to post by chinawhite

A divided China brings outside aggression and what China experienced with the "warlord" period and 100 years of humiliation still affects Chinese policy makers

Interesting point. I suppose there is not a single country in the world that wants to see its territory divided, and perhaps China's fear is greater; however, the world is changing rapidly. Its time to move on and get past those old fears. Take Europe, for example. At the same time as territorial borders are blurring within the European Union, smaller ethnic groups within the traditional boundaries are becoming more outspoken and demanding recognition for their unique heritage. And why shouldn't they? They are not mutually exclusive. People can be free to celebrate their ethnic and even historical territorial claims, but also embrace a freely formed (i.e. not coerced) union for mutual social and economic gain.
The notion of a hard and fast homeland territory enforced by military might is becoming less relevant in the global economy. Its the business and scientific partnerships that count, not the geography.
I guess the point I am making is that we all need to lighten up a bit in terms of allowing people their free choices within a more flexible, dynamic political reality. By the way, the ordinary people of the "West" have been as dominated and manipulated by the PTB as any.
As painful as it is sometimes to try and understand the different outlook between west and east, I think we will overcome it. Just don't expect it all to be smooth and easy. None of us let go our prejudices easily.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by Edn
However it didn't work, eventually we did form an alliance and that eventually turned into 4 counties ruled by one government

Taiwan that Tibetans will eveutally accept it as being part of China just like the scotts,

I think you missed the point where we never were merged with England, Scotland stayed a separate country.

Scotland is a (reasonably) self governing country which is united under one crown(thats the key there) with England Wales and N Ireland. Some part's of law and government that affect all the kingdoms are run by parliament in England which is not exclusively run by the English. Other parts of law and government that affect only Scotland are run by the Scottish parliament.

This is what ive been hearing the Dalai Lama asking for in part.

I couldn't say it better Edn. Tibet has absolutely no representation in Chinese political affairs. They are subject to Chinese rule and that is final. There's nothing beyond that. They are subjects.

And chinawhite, you ultra nationalist [SNIP]; Scottish people, and Irish people, and Welsh people... they are all British citizens with equal representation in Parliament. The peoples of all of Britain's countries are represented fairly, and all work in conjunction in governing and developing the Kingdom. This doesn't always have to be about political ideology. I implore you to be pragmatic for once. Use your logic and not those indoctrinated Maoist catch lines [SNIP]

There are only 2 million Tibetans. How could you possibly say that this is anything but an assertion of false Communist ideals and Supremacy.

And what do you mean hundreds of millions of Han Chinese have been living there for thousands of years? I'm honestly confused here.

Tibet wouldn't be setting a precedent for other small nations. They are truly an exception. They are an exception because in this case Tibet is a genuine independent nation that is subject to inequity and oppression. This applies the same for Kosovo. If Serbia had a population of one billion, it would never let Kosovo go. It would show them as weak to their political and ideological enemies. China is emulating a convoluted Socialist ploy to demonstrate it's Supremacy. I can't say that enough.

Sure, if Tibet secedes China will look a whole lot smaller on the map. Does it matter? There are virtually no valuable natural resources there, it is the least densely populated region in all of Asia, and the only industry is subsistence agriculture. Can you not see the dilemma? Western nations are perplexed, and know from experience, from the days of Stalin, that this is a politically inspired, rhetorical ploy to ensure The Supremacy of the People's Republic of China!

[edit on 3-5-2008 by cognoscente]






Mod Edit: Personal insults removed. Please see Terms and Conditions of Use 2) Behavior. Thank you - Jak

[edit on 5/5/08 by JAK]

Tibet: The Truth (A Political History)


[edit on 4-5-2008 by bluepanic]

[edit on 4-5-2008 by bluepanic]