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Originally posted by Leevi
reply to post by mad scientist
What failed miserably ? Where and when ? The destination of an air strike is not specified, neither do we know what area was bombed, what facilities were there nor do we know whether it was protected by any Russian technology or not.
What are you trying to say here ? I fail to understand what you are basing your conclusions on.. Be more specific. The bits of information coming from the both sides are too vague and inconsistent to say anything certain about the whole story, let alone making anything special out of it as you do here.
Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by Iblis
I do beleieve that 99.9999999999999% of soldiers/sailors and airmen who have served at least 1 tour in an SF unit , generally do not talk about it - there are exceptions but they can be counted on 1 hand. therefore i pesonally would say your neighbour is full of bull.
Originally posted by mad scientist
You said the attacks didn't occur, I have provided evidence that they did, especially since both sides acknowledge it. The fact is the Israeli's were able to fly into Syrian airpsace unopposed drop some bombs nad fly out again. What is your point. the attack occurred, you were wrong.
The September Israeli airstrike on a suspected nuclear site in Syria had been in the works for months, ABC News has learned, and was delayed only at the strong urging of the United States.
Related Stories
Israel, breaking silence, confirms strike in SyriaTop World News with Charles Gibson stories
Orphan School Opens Its Doors in BaghdadMusic 'Wonder' Hits Road to Honor MomPerson of the Week: Stevie Wonder
In early July the Israelis presented the United States with satellite imagery that they said showed a nuclear facility in Syria. They had additional evidence that they said showed that some of the technology was supplied by North Korea.
One U.S. official told ABC's Martha Raddatz the material was "jaw dropping" because it raised questions as to why U.S. intelligence had not previously picked up on the facility.
Officials said that the facility had likely been there for months if not years.
"Israel tends to be very thorough about its intelligence coverage, particularly when it takes a major military step, so they would not have acted without data from several sources," said ABC military consultant Tony Cordesman.
U.S. Cautious After Flawed Iraq Intelligence
A senior U.S. official said the Israelis planned to strike during the week of July 14 and in secret high-level meetings American officials argued over how to respond to the intelligence.
Some in the administration supported the Israeli action, but others, notably Sect. of State Condoleeza Rice did not. One senior official said the U.S. convinced the Israelis to "confront Syria before attacking."
Officials said they were concerned about the impact an attack on Syria would have on the region. And given the profound consequences of the flawed intelligence in Iraq, the U.S. wanted to be absolutely certain the intelligence was accurate.
Initially, administration officials convinced the Israelis to call off the July strike. But in September the Israelis feared that news of the site was about to leak and went ahead with the strike despite U.S. concerns.
The airstrike was so highly classified, President Bush refused to acknowledge it publicly even after the bombs fell.
abcnews.go.com...
Originally posted by James R. Hawkwood
Until the Pantsir S1 enters service...
And until Syria gets the S-300/400.
Then those planes are #ed.[/qquote]
How do you know some of the S1's weren't operational, are you an expert on Russian military technology and training ? So basically you are just speculating with an uninformed opinion. Correct ?
How do you know the S-300 and S-400 are so effective, because the Russian brochures claim so ? Let's face it they have never been combat tested and they certainlyhave never come up against the ultra advanced western ECM systems. So please enough speculation, show me facts.
Oh the Pantsir couldnt be fielded because off the very limited time frame they had.
they just got those AA vehicles a month and where months away from fielding them
How would you know ?
Originally posted by mad scientist
The September Israeli airstrike on a suspected nuclear site in Syria had been in the works for months, ABC News has learned, and was delayed only at the strong urging of the United States.
Related Stories
Israel, breaking silence, confirms strike in SyriaTop World News with Charles Gibson stories
Orphan School Opens Its Doors in BaghdadMusic 'Wonder' Hits Road to Honor MomPerson of the Week: Stevie Wonder
In early July the Israelis presented the United States with satellite imagery that they said showed a nuclear facility in Syria. They had additional evidence that they said showed that some of the technology was supplied by North Korea.
One U.S. official told ABC's Martha Raddatz the material was "jaw dropping" because it raised questions as to why U.S. intelligence had not previously picked up on the facility.
Officials said that the facility had likely been there for months if not years.
"Israel tends to be very thorough about its intelligence coverage, particularly when it takes a major military step, so they would not have acted without data from several sources," said ABC military consultant Tony Cordesman.
U.S. Cautious After Flawed Iraq Intelligence
A senior U.S. official said the Israelis planned to strike during the week of July 14 and in secret high-level meetings American officials argued over how to respond to the intelligence.
Some in the administration supported the Israeli action, but others, notably Sect. of State Condoleeza Rice did not. One senior official said the U.S. convinced the Israelis to "confront Syria before attacking."
Officials said they were concerned about the impact an attack on Syria would have on the region. And given the profound consequences of the flawed intelligence in Iraq, the U.S. wanted to be absolutely certain the intelligence was accurate.
Initially, administration officials convinced the Israelis to call off the July strike. But in September the Israelis feared that news of the site was about to leak and went ahead with the strike despite U.S. concerns.
The airstrike was so highly classified, President Bush refused to acknowledge it publicly even after the bombs fell.
abcnews.go.com...
Wells seems there was nuclar technology transfer from NK to Syria and teh Israeli's were able to take it out despite Syrian defences for no loss. You can be sure Syria would hvhave prctected this equipment with their best defences.
Originally posted by mad scientist
Originally posted by James R. Hawkwood
Until the Pantsir S1 enters service...
And until Syria gets the S-300/400.
Then those planes are #ed.[/qquote]
How do you know some of the S1's weren't operational, are you an expert on Russian military technology and training ? So basically you are just speculating with an uninformed opinion. Correct ?
How do you know the S-300 and S-400 are so effective, because the Russian brochures claim so ? Let's face it they have never been combat tested and they certainlyhave never come up against the ultra advanced western ECM systems. So please enough speculation, show me facts.
Oh the Pantsir couldnt be fielded because off the very limited time frame they had.
they just got those AA vehicles a month and where months away from fielding them
How would you know ?
How do you know some of the S1's weren't operational, are you an expert on Russian military technology and training ? So basically you are just speculating with an uninformed opinion. Correct ?
basically , you are doing the same thing , by using speculative western sources like strategypage that cliam that the s1 was deployed , and the article on strategypage, seemed to be based on Debka article , and Debka has serious credidibility issues
How do you know the S-300 and S-400 are so effective, because the Russian brochures claim so ? Let's face it they have never been combat tested and they certainlyhave never come up against the ultra advanced western ECM systems. So please enough speculation, show me facts.
then please show the facts that 'ultra advanced' western system can counter s-300/s-400 ....
How would you know ?
and how DO YOU KNOW , ??? FROM DEBKA :lolthe article on strategypage is based on it)
Originally posted by James R. Hawkwood
Mad Scientist: I dont know Russian or Syrian procedures on integrating AA systems but what i do know is that one month is too short to field an entirely new system.
You need to train the crew, the technicians and construct the infrastructure required to field the units and to transport them to special maintance stations to keep those units in top notch shape and such things cant be done in one month.
Originally posted by mad scientist
Either way the expertise is there to get the systems operational withing a week.
Originally posted by James R. Hawkwood
Mad Scientist and Mason. Please edit your posts because i cant quote both off you guys.
Mad Scientist: I dont know Russian or Syrian procedures on integrating AA systems but what i do know is that one month is too short to field an entirely new system.
You need to train the crew, the technicians and construct the infrastructure required to field the units and to transport them to special maintance stations to keep those units in top notch shape and such things cant be done in one month.
It can only happen in wartimes when things are sped up like crazy.
And we are not in a time off war.
But given the usual timeframe of at least several months to even reach an initial operational level with any complex weapon system it is most improbable that Pantsir-S1 systems where in combat.
en.wikipedia.org...
Also take note that an F-15 can reach mach 2.5 (This however would not be their approach air speed on a bombing run.) and Pantsir can't deal with target that goes faster than 1000m/s
en.wikipedia.org...
36 to 50 on order[10]; signed 2006 as part of arms package worth about US$ 1 billion[11]; deliveries began in August of 2007; British Jane's Defence Weekly reported in May 2007 that 50 systems are on order by Damascus and that at least ten of those Pantsirs would be handed over to Iran by the end of 2008.
en.wikipedia.org...
Originally posted by mad scientist
Well either the Syrians are trained in Russia or there are Russians technicians inside Syrian doing the training. Either way the expertise is there to get the systems operational withing a week.
Originally posted by chinawhite
The Pantsir-S1 hadn't reached IOC.
EDIT: It took china about 2 1/2 month to reach IOC with the S-300 after the initial delivery
[edit on 6-10-2007 by chinawhite]
Originally posted by chinawhite
The Pantsir-S1 hadn't reached IOC.
EDIT: It took china about 2 1/2 month to reach IOC with the S-300 after the initial delivery
[edit on 6-10-2007 by chinawhite]