Religions provide the PROOF Religions don't exist. Religion's conspiracy against religion.

Sorry if it seems like I’m becoming over analytic of this but if the cells are exposed to the mothers neuro-peptides then wouldn’t that just have conditioned the cells? And wouldn’t that just contradict your statement of babies being born with fear. Because technically the cells never knew fear, they were exposed and conditioned to their mothers fear, and thus learning it, not being created with it. So can we conclude that a cell in its natural form, not being influenced by it’s mothers neuro-peptides has no fear.

anyone? your telling me no one has an opinion of that last statement?

Originally posted by spaceman16
anyone? your telling me no one has an opinion of that last statement?

I don't really see what ET is stating about fear and neuropeptides, one neuropeptide has been clearly shown to be involved in the suppression of neural fear responses, oxytocin. This neuropeptide is also involved in attachment, social recognition, and aggression.

Thus administration of oxytocin increases judgements of trustworthiness.

The fear response is predominately associated with the amygdala and a resulting sympathetic nervous system activation and HPA axis fight-or-flight response which is a cascade of hormones and involves also neurochemicals (glucocorticoids, adrenaline, noradrenaline, serotonin etc).

What has been shown is that stress in pregnancy can have a affect on the sensitivity to stress in children, as cortisol (a corticosteroid hormone produced during stress) can pass the placenta. It is thought it affects the development of the HPA axis system in the fetus. This predominately occurs during the later periods of pregnancy. Children of such mothers are more vulnerable to anxiety. There was a study a couple years back on humans that showed this, it was previously well-established in animal models.

This maybe what ET is referring to. But I would say they are born sensitive to stress and anxiety rather than 'born with fear'.

[edit on 5-1-2007 by melatonin]

First let me apologize for the long delay in my response spaceman16. I was either focused on other thread subjects at the time, or i wasn't on ats for a couple weeks. Sorry spaceman16, and other members.

Originally posted by spaceman16
Sorry if it seems like I’m becoming over analytic of this but if the cells are exposed to the mothers neuro-peptides then wouldn’t that just have conditioned the cells? And wouldn’t that just contradict your statement of babies being born with fear.

The way i understand it (as has been explained to me, or i've read) i don't believe this is contradictory, but it is a justified question indeed.

As i understand it:

Neuro-peptides are very small protein strands (chemical) messages created by the hypothalmus and distributed throughout the body to appropriate celss in specific systems and organs. The neuro-peptides are messages that are associated with specific emotions such as fear. When a cell receives the message it in some cases actually changes the genetic make up housed in the neucleas (sp?) of the cell, so that the cell can adapt to the changes required, if the change is one that is one that will be necessary for survival throughout an extended period of time, or for life. So if the mother has been experiencing anxiety (a form of fear) or any other fear throughout her pregnancy, odds are the chemical messages (neuro-peptides) have also been delivered to the fetus's cells as well, which may alter their dna and/or cells also.

So the process may not be contradictory. I am currently at a loss if this is a theory or a proven fact, but i can google later for more information concering the phenomenon. I don't want to give the wrong information. So, the explanation i offered is my current best understanding of what it is i have been taught, or learned from reading. And is the best reply to your inquiry that i can offer. I hope this makes sense.

Because technically the cells never knew fear, they were exposed and conditioned to their mothers fear, and thus learning it, not being created with it.

Again, you may be right. I'm not sure. However, we can witness actions and behaviors in the reactions that are exhibited in new borns of the animal kingdom also. So, perhaps the genetic encoding that represents fear in the dna could be inert, until activated by the mother's neuro-peptides which command the cells in the developing fetus to activate the cellular genetics that are natural adaptations to fear. This is an educated guess on my part, but i still believe that children do have knowledge of fear upon being born. The birthing process can be tramatic for a newborn, and with the stress of being born, coupled with the fact that their own systems are now responsible for what had been supplied for them, may indeed be reason enough for some emotional response at the cellular levels, without the conscious mind (which is underdeveloped) understanding how to cope. So, one question that could provide an answer to your question is: Do newborns "feel" emotions?

So can we conclude that a cell in its natural form, not being influenced by it’s mothers neuro-peptides has no fear.

I'm not qualified to say you are totally incorrect.

However, it is difficult for me to imagine how the primary instinct of "Self Preservation" can be carried out without any "alarm" system in place to let someone know that they are in danger.

Can someone percieve that they are in danger, and need to act in order to preserve their own safety, without being afraid?

I think pain itself is a defense mechanism, but pain is also a form of the message of fear being delivered to the brain by the cells themselves. So, can we assume that pain is an example of how the cells relay the message of fear? Perhaps we shouldn't assume, but we could entertain the idea of it, until we have proof otherwise. Now, IF pain is a form of fear (cellular/nervous system level) do newborns feel pain? And if so, do their cells now know fear, and accept that it is justified for long term incorporation as an individual grows and develops through life?

These are pertinent questions, which i may have an opinion on, but i do not have the answers to.

Thanks for making me think spaceman, and happy new year by the way,
john