This is How Modern Man Treats the Ancients

Just been looking around on the web taking a photo tour of Ancient Sites and I found this...

Doorway of the Gods

My point here is not to debate the website or its theories, thats been done here before.

I use this site merely because of the photos someone took while at the site at lake Titicaca in Peru, the Doorway of Amaru Meru..


Here is what is pi...making me very upset...


This shows me what mankind has stooped to. This same kind of activity has happened here in the US and still does, but at least we clean it up...


Picture One

Picture Two

Picture Three


Now if this doesn't outrage most of you... go have another beer...
The worst of it is, you can't even complain to the officials because...

El Presidente Runs Campaign Ad


[walks away mutterring... I need to finish that space ship... I need to get outta here quick]

Why would this pi..uh, make you upset? From my understanding archaeologists have examples of graffiti that date back to at least ancient Greece, and I know for sure ancient Rome (Pompeii). Hell, forget ancient civilization, Graffiti has been around as long as we have, just think Lascaux.




Little people also like the thought of their name living forever. Who knows, maybe in the future there will be a whole discipline set up to study these paintings...

I wonder if there were cavemen who bitched about their cave's being vandalized?



[edit on 13-7-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
I wonder if there were cavemen who bitched about their cave's being vandalized?

I doubt it. I mean they didn't have modern ideals of justice. I mean a simple club to the head... problem solved.

So what are we saying here... Grafiti is okay because the cavemen did it?... Modern Man still has caveman mentallity [the little people]?... Our grafiti of today will be the archeologists amazing discovery of tomorrow?

Hmmm maybe right on all accounts. Sad... really sad... maybe I expect to much of the human race

Originally posted by zorgon

So what are we saying here... Grafiti is okay because the cavemen did it?...

Well, I am not trying to put forth the two wrongs fallacy by any means. I do however think that graffiti is no big deal.

Why is it that we have no problems with armies of men destroying a mountain to build a temple, yet when some pleb scribbles on said temple, it is all of a sudden a big deal?

Our grafiti of today will be the archeologists amazing discovery of tomorrow?

Yes, I seriously do belive this. I don't think of it as sad though, I just look at it more along the lines of: The more things change, the more they stay the same.

To get a feel for this, check this out...taken from Rome's Basillica I think...

QUISQUIS AMAT VENIAT VENERI VOLO FRANGERE COSTAS
Calling all lovers! I want to break Venus' ribs
FUSTIBUS ET LUMBOS DEBILITARE DEAE
with clubs and cripple the loins of the goddess.
SI POTEST ILLA MIHI TENERUM PERTUNDERE PECTUS
If she can pound my soft chest,
QUIT EGO NON POSSIM CAPUT ILLAE FRANGERE FUSTE
why shouldn't I be able to smash her head with a club?
www.amherst.edu...
[edited to add link to cool ancient Graffiti]

[edit on 13-7-2006 by phoenixhasrisin]

After reading this, in 1000 years, I wonder how they will decipher the graffiti on the New York Subway Line. That could be interesting.

Edit: 7-13-06@7:11PM for spelling mistakes(really should watch what the heck I'm typing LMAO)
Edit: 7-13-06@7:12PM forgot a parentheses
[edit on 13-7-2006 by Skullcrusher]

[edit on 13-7-2006 by Skullcrusher]

There is a time and a place for modern grafitti and there also place's that should'nt be defaced by such act's of vandalism's. Namely archeological and ancient sight's of historical importandce's.

Originally posted by Allred5923
There is a time and a place for modern grafitti and there also place's that should'nt be defaced by such act's of vandalism's. Namely archeological and ancient sight's of historical importandce's.

But it is ok when the grave robbers of the west deface archeological sights of historic importance all in the name of science, right?

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Originally posted by Allred5923
There is a time and a place for modern grafitti and there also place's that should'nt be defaced by such act's of vandalism's. Namely archeological and ancient sight's of historical importandce's.

But it is ok when the grave robbers of the west deface archeological sights of historic importance all in the name of science, right?

What are you pertaning to? I don't understand your statement.

Originally posted by Allred5923
What are you pertaning to? I don't understand your statement.

Sorry, it just seems to me as if the only reason that people are protesting this "defilement" is because it might not be by people that they prefer, or in methods that they prefer.

Cultures have been raiding tombs for millinaea, and to suggest that because it is not by an academic institute, then it is automatically defilement, or graverobbing is eurocentric at best. Then again, maybe I am too sensitive on the tiopic to begin with.

Ok, it may just be me but you make no sence, what so ever.

Perhaps it woul dbe best if you did tak your "space ship" and left. At least you get what you want, and others can continue as they were.

As for this day and age of exciting and new find's, I realize that there are some people out there that have no respect for the institution's that be for the preservation of such ancient and very important crucial sight's for us as a race have to find to be able to explain the past for the future generation's, like my daughter's, they love to watch and learn about these thing's of the past, but when you have to see the thing's like the op has posted for this thread, it is rather heartbreaking to know that there are true "Idiot's" out there,(For lack of a better word) I for one do care and wish to "not see this happen, anywhere."

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin[/i
But it is ok when the grave robbers of the west deface archeological sights of historic importance all in the name of science, right?

Actually NO. Try digging up a native american site. I suppose the argument is still a matter of preservation. In a museum at least one can learn and keep it safe. The artifacts are one thing, but putting mummies on display. Well would you like to have your grave dug up and be put on display?

But don't blame the west. Grave robbers are in all countries, especially the east. They got the good stuff before the westerners got there. They just missed one or two like King Tut. Country of origin should be able to retain their own treasures, but that is rarely the reality.

Indian Jones types are all to common.

I don't think a bit of graffiti compares to grave robbing or the stealing of one's culture and artifcats. If you do some research online, you will find this practice prevalent in the majority of well respected institutions; including the British Museum and the Smithsonian.

Ever walked around and wondered how they have such magnificent works permanantly stored in their collection? To me this is a bigger outrage and a far more disrespectful way to show how modern man likes to view others as 'savage and uncultured' while he sees himself as enlightened.

And hinting that the 'West' doesn't do it is highly Eurocentric (as someone mentioned) not to mention uninformed.

I saw published somewhere last year a list of the top ten offenders of stolen arts and artificats. All my favourite museums were on there.

If I find the list again i'll post it. Meanwhile, you can read something here about Machu Picchu that should anger you. Well, at least it angered me. But some people might be OK with it because it is after all Yale.

March 2 (Bloomberg) -- The government of Peru said it will sue Yale University, the third-oldest U.S. college, over hundreds of artifacts taken from the ancient city of Machu Picchu nearly a century ago.

Eduardo Ferrero, Peru's ambassador in Washington, said Yale archeologist Hiram Bingham took the artifacts from the Incan city in the Andes between 1911 and 1916 with the understanding that they were on temporary loan and ``would be returned.''

Yale, which has displayed the antiquities at its Peabody Museum in New Haven, Connecticut, offered to set up parallel collections at Yale and at a new museum to be built in Peru, which the government rejected.

Machu Pichhu

[edit on 14-7-2006 by nikelbee to reduce tone of sarcasm]

[edit on 14-7-2006 by nikelbee]

couldn't agree more nickelbee, here's some aboriginal remains that have only recently been returned for burial (last few years). when it comes to defiling sites the 'west' has been leading the way for a long time.

news.bbc.co.uk...

www.eniar.org...

wonder how much of that graffiti shown by the op was local compared to tourist. alot of the graffiti on aboriginal sites here are actually from locals and in some cases aboriginal. sad but as has already been stated it's been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Originally posted by nikelbee
And hinting that the 'West' doesn't do it is highly Eurocentric (as someone mentioned) not to mention uninformed.

No I do believe you misunderstood me sir, I did not say/mean the West does not do it, I merely stated in response to the previous poster that the East is just as guilty. Egyptians have had tombs plundered by their own people long before westerners came on the scene.

I did not mean to imply the West was guiltless...

Originally posted by ADVISOR
Ok, it may just be me but you make no sence, what so ever.

Perhaps it woul dbe best if you did tak your "space ship" and left. At least you get what you want, and others can continue as they were.

WOW...

All i can say is..this has got to be the least constructive comment i,ve ever read from a moderater on this board in over 5 yrs.

Here you have a guy with a valid point about supposedly modern civillised man vandalising a site of huge historical interest and all you can say is this???

At least the members who have posted here have made a counterpoint about vandalism/expressive graffiti etc. but you contributed absolutely nothing..

What is your point?
Do you have a grievance about this member?
Are you having a bad day?

While i am aware that moderaters can also freely express their opinion outside of their mod duties i find this to be frankly offensive, demeaning and utterly non characteristic or representative of the standard of this board..

Rant over. HAVE A NICE DAY.

Regarding Western museums, much of what they have was taken perfectly legally. The Egyptian government long ago had a deal where you could excavate and keep half of what you found, the rest going to the Egyptians.

In this way, they could fund digs in Egypt by legitimate archaeologists, which back then was a fairly new science, and retrieve valuable display items. All without laying out a single dime of their own money.

This practice ended with Howard Carter's controversial activities during the Tut excavation.

Not to say that several museums don't illegally possess some items. A lot of items were hidden from the Egyptian authorities and thus not counted as part of the find in early digs. Also, what with the Colonial period, several valuable finds were just taken out of Egypt by the colonial power of the time, with the Egyptians having no say in the matter. Think of what Napoleon brought back. Many Items in the British museum ended up in the UK after the British defeated the French. The "booty" was demanded by the Brits as part of the French surrender agreement.

Zahi Hawass, the man everybody here seems to loathe, has been instrumental in orchestrating the return to Egypt of quite a large number of artifacts which were either stolen by graverobbers (which is still going on today) and put on the market, or were taken illegally back in the day. Hawass has even shamed some collectors into returning items that they legally possessed.

I'm not up on all the signatories, but most of the West is signatory to a U.N. agreement making the unauthorized transport and/or sale of antiquities illegal. There have been several arrests, with convictions and jail time, here in the U.S. of various "art dealers" that have been caught doing this. Some of them weren't in the least involved in the actual theft, they were just middlemen, so to speak, and could make a somewhat convincing claim that they didn't know the artifacts they held were smuggled illegally out of Egypt. According to U.S. law, that doesn't matter, though. It is up to the buyer to make sure of the authenticity and authorization of the items he purchases.

All such items recovered by law enforcement have been returned to Hawass' "Council on Antiquities," or whatever they call it in Egypt.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
Regarding Western museums, much of what they have was taken perfectly legally. The Egyptian government long ago had a deal where you could excavate and keep half of what you found, the rest going to the Egyptians.

Harte

Was it taken 'perfectly legally' because they (colonial govts) made the laws in some cases. Not illegal if you make up laws to suit your own agenda as was the case with the british 'aquisition' of aboriginal remains and artifacts. But as stated before local populations are just as guilty of aquiring artifacts for monetary gain as museums were for academic interests.

Originally posted by mojo4sale
Was it taken 'perfectly legally' because they (colonial govts) made the laws in some cases. Not illegal if you make up laws to suit your own agenda as was the case with the british 'aquisition' of aboriginal remains and artifacts...

Like I said, during colonialism, the colonial power pretty much took whatever they wanted.

But the deal Egypt had (half and half) was after this period, and in fact, most of the good stuff you'll find at the British Museum was originally looted from Egypt by Napoleon. Doesn't mean it's okay for the Brits to keep it though.

Originally posted by mojo4saleBut as stated before local populations are just as guilty of aquiring artifacts for monetary gain as museums were for academic interests.

Regarding local populations, that's true. But we're talking apples and oranges here. I mean the graverobbers are individuals, museum "buyers' and curators are individuals. The (former) Colonial powers are governments. You can throw an individual into prison. What can you do to Parliament?

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

snip.... The (former) Colonial powers are governments. You can throw an individual into prison. What can you do to Parliament?

Harte

What i would like to do, sorry cant say without breaking the T&C. How many private collections do you think would contain illegally removed artifacts, are these private collectors ever bought to justice, i cant think of too many, probably because most of these would have significant contacts/influence within govt and academic circles? Sorry for wandering off topic.