Joint Unmanned combat Air Vehical program scrapped.

www.air-attack.com...

I was looking for an image of a robot plane called the x-45a when I found this web site with this very strange head line and article. It basically has the whole program scrapped and money put into developing a new bomber for the airforce.

Im sorry if this has been posted before, but i cannot seem to get the search engine working....

any how, it is a shame because I kind of liked the idea of robot planes doing the dangerouse work whilst those that flew sat in saftey.

While I think the X-45C is dead n gone...I think the Navy still wants the X-47B, and I think it still is getting funding.

Probably it hasn,t been scrapped..just sent to black ops..

See if your national deficit goes up again this year
wouldn,t it be cool if they had to disclose the expenditure if not the actual technology that is produced.How could that harm national security??

Black??? certianly not. While it is unmanned, its subsonic and would have a pretty small payload...deffiniatly not "Black Project" material.

I got the impression that they just scrapped the joint stuff in order to discontinue the army equipment in favor of the navy's more advanced version? Although I am the least qualified to post on this stuff . . . my knowledge base on military tech runs out at about 1870.

.

Originally posted by AGENT_T
Probably it hasn,t been scrapped..just sent to black ops..

See if your national deficit goes up again this year
wouldn,t it be cool if they had to disclose the expenditure if not the actual technology that is produced.How could that harm national security??

Somewhat OT but I have to correct this mis impression. In fact the deficit and the debt are SHRINKING thanks to tax cuts and an expanding economy (5.3%! in Q1).

Besides America is spending barely 4% of her GDP on defense, a paltry amount.

As to this UCAV, I imagine, like the early days of jet aircraft, there will be a lot of change, cancled projects and small production models as the tech gets sorted out.

Consider how many different fighters there were in the 50-70s, but the 15 has been in service for almost 30 years.

[edit on 3-7-2006 by Number23]

I'm the owner of that website

The J-UCAS program has officially been terminated. The X-47 program is now a Navy program, they're currently developing it at the Patuxent Naval Air Station: Navy Unmanned jet program moved from Wright-Patterson

Boeing is considering to modify their X-45C in order to compete in the Navy's UCAV program. The X-45 however was originaly designed for the Air Force, so Northrop's X-47 has a big advantage:

Originally posted by Murcielago
Black??? certianly not. While it is unmanned, its subsonic and would have a pretty small payload...deffiniatly not "Black Project" material.

By "black project" I assume you mean a Special Access Program.

To rule out the possibility of an aircraft project being "black" because it is subsonic and has a small payload is at best an erroneous assumption.

A recent example is the "Bird of Prey", which was a subsonic, low payload black project.
Not everything labelled "black" has to be a hypersonic trans-atmospheric vehicle.

In fact Agent_T may actually be onto something (regarding the X-45 going black) since the X-45 was very successful and DARPA snagged a couple of them from the JUCAS program for "research purposes".







[edit on 7-4-2006 by intelgurl]

the black projects have a reason for being black.
Usually the info is national security related so we cant kind out all its goodies.

But the Bird of Prey was the stealthiest aircraft ever flown...and is rumored to have visual stealth...which wouldn't be revealed due to National Security.

The X-45C on the other hand....Nearly everything about it is known...Its RCS, Range, Speed, Cost, payload, etc. There is absolutly Zero reason to think that this plane would go black.

Oh wow zion mainframe

Can I have your digital autograph? your sites really really cool!

lol sorry i had to ask .... Any how, about the project. Remember the yf-111 project? tried to be the leader of all and master of none? got binned by two services and then the third made it into a world beater - I wonder if this is whats happening here with this project?

Originally posted by Murcielago
the black projects have a reason for being black.
Usually the info is national security related so we cant kind out all its goodies.

But the Bird of Prey was the stealthiest aircraft ever flown...and is rumored to have visual stealth...which wouldn't be revealed due to National Security.

The X-45C on the other hand....Nearly everything about it is known...Its RCS, Range, Speed, Cost, payload, etc. There is absolutly Zero reason to think that this plane would go black.

Most technical specs on the Dark Star were widely known as well, but lo and behold one of the worst kept secrets of the Iraq invasion was the large "son of" Dark Star. At least an unacknowledged aircraft if not "black".

The fact remains that it is not just the airframe and it's capabilities and capacities that would make a system "black", but also the capabilities and functions of the hardware/software/boxes onboard the aircraft, or the role selected for the aircraft - this is something I learned at Creech AFB over the last 2 years while working for Raytheon.

The X-45 could very well be a platform capable of highly advanced autonomy (which it was on it's way to having), or it could be that there are other reasons to take it "black". I can think of several reasons why the USAF would want a squadron of these first wave aircraft to be secret.
I'm not saying that there is a squadron or that the X-45 has gone black - but totally dissing the notion is still what I would consider an erroneous assumption.

Aren't all X projects "black projects"...:??

Uh no. All X projects are Experimental. The X-43(?) hypersonic testbed was anything BUT black. NASA was even broadcasting the B-52 launching, and the flights all the way up to the Pegaus launch from the -52.

All X projects are Experimental, but not all Experimental projects are black.

Intelgurl is a DoD worker and subject expert.


If there was an icon for clapping my hands and cheesy grin i'd paint it all over my post !! wow oh wow! a DoD worker / subject expert! How cool is that??!!




Sorry, am wandering. Can I link to another thread that is here on ATS, because as much as the persons got a bit mauled on it, I actually have a suspicion that we may actually have the answer right in front of us. On a thread called I have no idea, there is a blurry picture of a plane being escorted that looks like a giant version of these UCAV planes / or is alot lower than the chasing plane. Could it just be that they have all the flight data they needed and just scaled it up?

[edit on 5/7/06 by GSA]

A direct qoute from aviation now that may explain why the JUCAV project was scrapped - I think maybe Lockheed have come up with the mother of all combat ucavs and have won the game. Especially when i read that DARPA were sniffing around the program and took two airframes for 'evaluation and intergration'.

"In addition to the intelligence-gathering UAV that Lockheed Martin developed using its own money, the Skunk Works also has been developing a classified UCAV demonstration program at least since 2000 with the idea of competing against Boeing's X-45 and Northrop Grumman's X-47 UCAV demonstrators (AW&ST Sept. 25, 2000, p. 28). Now Northrop Grumman, as the prime contractor, and Lockheed Martin have announced last week that they will collaborate on UCAV projects under the newly established Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency-led joint program office."

They just got rolled all over by Lockheed

I hope that all UAV's get cancelled, save reconassence drones. I'm say this because I once dreamed of becoming a fighter pilot, and the only reason I didnt was because I live in Canada, and our fighter fleet is a joke, had I been living in the US I am confident I am capable enough to get seat time in some amazing machines. I'm sure if you ask how fighter pilots feel about UAV fighters, you will get a resounding boo. If I had the chance to fly some actual fighters, I would rather take the risks involved then be pretty much playing a video game.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Uh no. All X projects are Experimental. The X-43(?) hypersonic testbed was anything BUT black. NASA was even broadcasting the B-52 launching, and the flights all the way up to the Pegaus launch from the -52.

All X projects are Experimental, but not all Experimental projects are black.

Exellent point...

*banks his head in the door*

We dont know if the "black" Dark Star even exist...as of today, there isn't one aircraft that went from public knowledge to unacknowledged.

If the Navy continues funding on the X-47B...and then they begin production on it for the carriers (which I think is entirely possible), then that would greatly deminish the role of the "Black 45's".
But yes...they could still be used...possably stationed in foriegn countries next to "evil doer" countries. And they could easily take over the role of the F-117's.

GSA,

>>
A direct qoute from aviation now that may explain why the JUCAV project was scrapped - I think maybe Lockheed have come up with the mother of all combat ucavs and have won the game. Especially when i read that DARPA were sniffing around the program and took two airframes for 'evaluation and intergration'.
>>

'AvLeak is now officially a branch of the U.S. government.' They report the news but lack the objective editorialism to keep from being suckered by pre-spun 'announcements' without regard to context.

>>
"In addition to the intelligence-gathering UAV that Lockheed Martin developed using its own money, the Skunk Works also has been developing a classified UCAV demonstration program at least since 2000 with the idea of competing against Boeing's X-45 and Northrop Grumman's X-47 UCAV demonstrators (AW&ST Sept. 25, 2000, p. 28). Now Northrop Grumman, as the prime contractor, and Lockheed Martin have announced last week that they will collaborate on UCAV projects under the newly established Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency-led joint program office."
>>

And the foxes say: "That ain't no chicken it's a trout!"

The USAF 'bought out' the DARPA effort when it became clear that they could end up seeing a UDS or UCAV Demo System exit phase by 2006, in time to compete with the JSF PWSC 'proof of rampup' (the AF wanted to narrow the range to no-other-option of course).

This was waaaaay back in the early millenium, if not before. Showing you that they new _exactly_ how bad the JSF was going to end up reeking of money pit and that they were politically astute enough to assure the crib kill by playing Kronos.

Now, having successfully bloated the X-45 system concept from the A up to the C, Iraq provided a useful excuse to cancel for convenience as an excuse to avoid robotic air. 'And never mind that it's exactly what we need over there while the worthless pilots yeowl at being forced to do NTISR'.

And because the military is foolishly allowed to run their own house in the R&D area, Congress can only sit there and twiddle their lips waiting to sign a check on whatever else comes out of the back room.

Of course not even the AF may have known what a CF would arise from Iraq's playout as a function of rampup delays and tech negotiations over the F-35 as well. And now that the U.S. service needs are looking at approximately one third to one half the original order (i.e., not 28 million, not 45 million but _107 million apiece and rising_), the JSF 'bubble' on buyers has likely collapsed for the last time.

Which means Congress ain't interested because they do AF pork programming only to make money at home and _on debt_ and that now looks to be a lost cause as we have effectively sold the American People a bill of goods via 'guaranteed' export pricing among other stupidities of how-it-will-be-built.

Of course the AF always has a hole card (unlike those moronic idjits at Navair, they cheat preemptively rather than playing hard to get until they have to cheat not to lose).

Apparently in this case, a 'black program' the total funding levels and economic pricing scalars (fleet size to dollars on a productionization effort) of which no one outside of SAR will ever know or reveal. And so not only is Boeing stuck with flying a technology testbed for /systems/ which will likely migrate to the new program (if there is one, which I seriously doubt) but Lunchmeat gets to rake in a big fat R&D card.

Whether they will break Anti Deficiency laws by using this 'black UCAV' as a slush fund to keep the F-35 on life support or will simply dump the effort (trojan horse filled with little JSFs) and 'reauthorize' funds once the budget crisis is fixed (new POTUS) doesn't matter, they exist to fund their own existence, not to ensure the defense of our nation.

The manned uber alles AF wants JSF to keep their precious cockpit counts edge over the Navy at at least twice what they need to be for a PCW (Post Cold War) fleet level (especially equipped with miniature IAMs).

And so the JSF they _will_ have.

In this they function more like Hoffa's truckers than anything. They will haul along any capability you want. So long as it's theirs to refuse to use it.

>>
They just got rolled all over by Lockheed
>>

Boeing is playing newbie in a restricted field. They would be well advised to look to Northrop and their struggles to become more than a niche player in the wake of the _entire_ F-5 program as a model. Something they should have known when they tried to buy reputation with the 'failed business model' that was MACDAC after the A-12.

The combination of Texan and Georgian politics is set to own tactical military aviation in this country, destroying design diversity and opposed as much as complimentary strike capabilities. This will make the MIC political element of any outyear reprogrammable contract awards obvious for what it is of course, leaving Lunchmeat the whore who will sleep with any requirement so long as it feeds her bottomline.

But it will be (and indeed, probably already is) too late to save the industry as it was.

Mind you, you have to be complete /git/ to want to be a system integrator (prime) these days anyway. Something Vought and Grumman and a slew of other companies realized a decade ago or more.


KPl.

ch1466 you deserve a whole bucket load of applause for your post thank you very much!

It was a good insight into what is happening out in their world, and it really makes me sad that so much rests on little egos afraid to lose a few dollars worth of copit in order to save face / prestige.

Save money by making a great world beater and sticking to it I say !


: )

Again cheers for that post ch1466.