Let's put an end to ALL secret societies

*sigh*
As I've already stated - you don't even know what or who Lucifer actually was. How can you therefore accuse other people of worshipping something that you know nothing about?

Of course, if your intimation is that Freemasons worship Satan, you're even further off the mark. Don't let that worry you though. Carry on ranting so that we can all have a good laugh at your expense - mason and non-mason alike.

Must you find out the hard way? Must I define "religion" for you get anywhere? Early Masons and the Knights of Malta were very much Luciferians and since you cannot agree on when Masonry started or even what it is, why don't you just stop laughing at your own pathetic rites and
join the OTO.

Roll in feces for all I care!


[edit on 23-11-2005 by markusjharper]

Originally posted by markusjharper
Roll in feces for all I care!

Geeze, take it easy, lol, you'll live longer...

Zip

Originally posted by markusjharper
Early Masons and the Knights of Malta were very much Luciferians
Roll in feces for all I care!

Now, now. Don't get your knickers in a twist (it's faeces by the way - I'm English and we invented the word).
At the risk of repeating myself (which I have to do a lot when conversing with you), how can you accuse somebody of worshipping Lucifer when you don't even know the meaning of the word itself?
And don't even get me started on the "asking you to supply proof" line for your above statement.

As for not knowing the origins of Freemasonry - I'd appreciate it if you could show me your pre-New Testament source. You see, you are correct. Nobody knows where or when Freemasonry began. All we can do is make educated guesses. If you're in possession of some documentation that proves the origins of Freemasonry, I'd very much like to see it so that I can send it on to my Grand Lodge - because even they aren't too sure where it began.

I await your answer with baited breath.

Actually I don't. I'd probably pass out, because you don't actually have any evidence do you?

Fruitcake... That is funny.
I am a Mason, amongst other many other fraternal organizations that I choose to belong to, Lucifer never is mentioned, alluded to, or intimated at. Stop reading between the lines. Masonry is for me, first and foremost a Fraternity. Nothing more. Not a church, charity, or method of salvation. I know many men who are Masons and their walk with God is unblemished. Masonry is not a religion!! My faith and my fraternity are between me and God.

Have a great holiday all.

Originally posted by markusjharper
And how do you suppose we would have any progress, if good people started to say things like "I worship Satan, but it's really a good God in my eyes"? Does that sound realistic and respectful? I sure hope not - but then again I have been having Masons upon Mason pile upon me and so I get a warning for using words slightly too strong.

No-one said anything about Satan, it was Lucifer that was mentioned.

And even in the Christian Bible, it's confusing..

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
www.bibleontheweb.com...

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

But there is an explanation!

In fact as the name 'Lucifer' is only used once in the standard Bible, in the above passage, and as it was incorrectly translated it would seem it is not as evil as one thinks, quite the opposite infact:4. Jerome had understood that Isaiah 14:12 is talking about Satan. There the Hebrew word "heylel" is used and Jerome translated this into Latin as "lucifer"!

This is a mistranslation!!!

5. The word "Lucifer" comes from 2 Latin words:

Lux (=light) + ferous (=to bear or carry). Thus the name "Lucifer" means:Light-bearer or Light-bringer.

But this is not what the Hebrew word "heylel" means! We'll see later exactly what this word does mean.

6. Anyway, as a result of this Latin Vulgate translation, which was almost the only version of the Bible in use throughout Europe for the next 1000 years, Satan popularly became known as Lucifer. It should be self-evident that when the first people who translated the Bible into English came along, one of their paradigms was that the name "Lucifer" applied to Satan. When they came to translate Isaiah 14:12 into English, they decided that rather than actually "translate" the word "Heylel," they would simply substitute it with the already well-known (originally) Latin name "Lucifer." And they could do this because on the surface this seems to be a reasonably accurate translation. But it isn't really!

7. I mentioned earlier that the word "Lucifer" appears only once in the English versions of the Bible. But in the Latin Vulgate translation of Jerome it appears twice! That's right, twice! Where else is this word used and who does it refer to? Jerome certainly knew who it refers to. This knowledge also casts a dark cloud over his intentional use in Isaiah 14:12!

8. 2 Peter 1:19 reads : "...until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts." this is another mistranslation!!!

The two words "day star" are a translation of the one Greek word "phosphoros." This comes from the two Greek words:

Phos (=light) + phero (=to bear or carry). Thus the Greek word "phosphoros" means Light-bearer or Light-bringer.

Anyone who knows both, Greek and Latin, can verify that the Greek word "Phosphoros" and the Latin word "Lucifer" are absolutely, one hundred percent identical in meaning. "Lucifer" is the perfect translation into Latin of the Greek word "Phosphoros."

..........................

Now let's look at Jerome. The phrases quoted under point #8 above are translated by Jerome into Latin as follows:

"...donec dies elucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris."

Notice that Jerome correctly translated the Greek "phosphoros" into the Latin word "lucifer." Jerome obviously knew that this verse refers to Jesus Christ--yet he wrote "lucifer" with a small "l" and did not capitalize the word. He also knew that he had translated the word "phosphoros" perfectly into Latin.

With this write-up I am including photo-copies of 2 peter 1:19 and Isaiah 14:12 from the Latin vulgate. (Comment: that is what I sent to Pasadena with the original write-up I sent through to them about 4-5 years ago. I can't really put photo-copies on Internet ).

Jerome knew that in the New Testament "Lucifer" is a title for Jesus Christ; yet he still chose to also translate the less- clearly defined Hebrew word "Heylel" in Isaiah 14:12 as "Lucifer," knowing that this word referred to Satan--and here Jerome started the word with a capital "L," as can be seen from the enclosed photo-copies.

So with Jerome Satan gets a name that refers to Christ with a capital letter--and Christ gets His own name only with a small letter.

www.israelofgod.org...

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."
www.lds-mormon.com...

So it is a common misconception that Lucifer is the devil, no matter how you look at it - that is not the word's meaning. And the only reason it is even suggested is because of one mis-translated Word in the Bible. And if Lucifer really is anyone - then it is ironically and more than likely Jesus.. But there is nothing to suggest it is the devil.

And that's just one theory, but none of the ones I've heard that originate from people that actually seem to know what they are talking about have anything to do with evil or the devil at all.

[edit on 23-11-2005 by AgentSmith]

faith in something is probably a greater power than any evidence. I totally respect Markus for hating secret societies. And hes right in a way, because a lot of them are involved in ugly, dirty things and if he believes the main conspiracy theory to be true (goverments and corporations leaders united in occult fraternities to keep hold of the power on this planet, + using this esoteric, occult knowledge in order to satisfy their bloody needs) its completely justified.

I do think, however, than the reality is much more complicated than this, and it is oversimplifying it to say that ''they are all evil''

also, whats wrong with worshipping lucifer? hes the light bearer. Only ppl i know who have a stong will againt him are religious zealots. Be aware that the churches worldwide are part of this conspiracy, and they convince ppl to reject all this mystical knowledge because ''hey, its evil, its satan, youll burn in hell) thus effectively keeping ppl away from the light.

When i first saw this thread I thought it said Secret Santas... just had a quick glance. i can say that I was worried.. but now that you say societies... sure.. why not.. Is ATS a society?

Senrak's typical response when things get to close to comfort is to laugh off as if that had some value, as if he could discount all the evidence in the links. That is the risk of organizational allegiance, forever defending. Try being a Freeman instead of a Freemason and it might open your eyes. Do you people ignore world events completely? You and Masonic Light are good at occult history. but where do you draw the dateline and stop talking about what is going on now? Are you above the world condition? I can understand why you might want to keep politics and religion out of your lodges but as men you still live in this world. The evidence of involvement of High Masons and Shriners in world events is overwhelming even if you discard 90% of the evidence. Truly I don't believe normal Masons and even most conspiracy theorists get the big picture because it so overwhelmingly obfuscated. If it were not for the internet we would know next to nothing unless we were up there with the bad boys which we would not be because we don't lust for power. How will you feel when the UN or other agency controls all content on the web or who can have a url and even you won't be able to talk? A lot of the noise here on ATS is as silly as Liberal vs Conservative noise it means nothing in light of the big picture. Did you not see the Tim Russert video interviewing Bush asking about Skull and Bones and he said he could not talk about it cause it was secret with that stupid grin of his and the same comment from Kerry. Have you not seen the video from inside Skull and Bones where the naked man is threatening a naked women on the floow with a knife? have you not seen the video from inside Bohemian Grove with the "Cremation of Care" ceremony. Maybe when the German troops stationed at Holloway Air base show up at YOUR door to take your guns you will wish you had used your influence more wisely. I am sure you know it is RABBI Chertoff head of Homeland security aka FEMA. Don't hide your wisdom under a bush! Generally I have heard you say nothing that mattered here.

No I don't know markusjharper bit I also know some of what he has learned. Why can you not appreciate the people who have and honestly honorable intent to make the world a better place and try to belittle them?

Originally posted by North Rider
When i first saw this thread I thought it said Secret Santas... just had a quick glance. i can say that I was worried.. but now that you say societies... sure.. why not.. Is ATS a society?

Dude, the Order of Secret Santas is meeting in this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


There you will find elves, reindeer and fat men in red suits. Pop along and give a hearty "Ho, ho, ho!!!".

Originally posted by AgentSmith
I wonder if markusjharper and peopledying share the same IP address?

Please do not speculate about whether other members are sock puppets or not. Moderation and Administration handle these sorts of things, just stick to the topic at hand.

senrak

....here's what I pick.

Please do not abuse and berate other members on the board.

markusjharper
I am opposed to anything that effects public poilicy

There is no legal nor reasonable requirement to have everything that a public official ever says recorded and made public.

it's faeces by the way - I'm English and we invented the word

Its actually a latin word. I beleive that when you read Cicero in latin (not that I do) the parts usually translated as 'scum' (ie 'Cataline, that scum) that the word is 'faecum'.

peopledying
Senrak's typical response

You've been here for, what, all of two days? Please don't think you know whats typical for the board.

The evidence of involvement of High Masons and Shriners in world events is overwhelming even if you discard 90% of the evidence

Instead of all these estimates of the weight of the evidence and adjectives to describe its overbearing overwhelmingness, and certainly instead of discarding any of it.....

how about presenting some of it????

Did you not see the Tim Russert video interviewing Bush asking about Skull and Bones and he said he could not talk about it cause it was secret

And what of it?

Have you not seen the video from inside Skull and Bones where the naked man is threatening a naked women on the floow with a knife?

Er, no, haven't seen that one. Please present it. How do you know its from skull and bones? Are we talking about play acting or an actual threat? What was the context? Was it part of a ritual that shows the baser side of man that has to be overcome, or one that shows what the ideal is?


The simple fact is that humans have a right to privacy and secrecy, and no government or angry group of individuals has the authority to revoke that. You cannot prevent public officials from discussing politics and policy in private. What does it matter that they are in private anyway???? Is a policy wrong, regardless of it who it helps, because its started as a private discussion? Or morally right, despite whom it hurts, because it was forumulated publically completely? Of course not. The origin of the policy has no bearing on its ethicalness or its effect.

You simply feel left out and are suspicious of what government officials are doing in secret. Why worry about it? When they come to do something wrong, then stop them. Until then, its really none of your or anyone elses business what they do.

[edit on 23-11-2005 by Nygdan]

FYI I follewed all this for a long time before becoming a member so had lots of time to read and get to know some of the Masons positions here. I espicially liked a few of the members educated knoxledge of occult topics and I thank them for it. I have not had their years of study along these lines. Then I found the recent material about the Jesuit/Mason connection. I felt it was so convincing I should try to expose more people to it so I stepped in.

I cannot find that video probably you could find it online somewhere, it was quite ghastly looking. Of course i was not there so could not prove it.

I believe it is illegal, unconstitution for the goverment to make public policy decesions in private, espicially offshore such as Bilderburg, and denying it. I would appreciate if anyone knows the law on this.

I don't know why some of you would defend the governments right to privacy over ours? God you sound like you would be be perfect in an orginazition where they don't tell you much "espicially with out the dues", you don't ask questions and don't question authority, "swear on your life". Some people are more comfortable in that sort of environment I guess. I would hate it, I think but maybe I shouls head over to one of the local Temples and meet them.

Did you forget they are supossed to work for us not the other way around? Then you accuse me of envy cause I am not one of them. Did you forget a basic of most religious traditions, such as "don't lust over the illusions of this world espicially using destruction as a tool"
Personal privacy I would defend all the way but deciding our future while runing around drunk in towels with priostitutes (male) Jeff Gannon etc, in the woods near Monte Rio, CA, likey with out tax dollars, well screw them! I read a woman victim from Monarch Mind Control has been sent in to be used before.

Oh and the evidence you requested:

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com... part1
www.theforbiddenknowledge.com... part2
www.thewatcherfiles.com...

www.masonicinfo.com...

excerpt from: www.heart7.net...

1534 Church of Jesu. ( aka Society of Jesus, Jesuits the power behind Freemasonry) Also headquarters of the Knights of Malta.

Founded in 1534 by Ignatius Loyola founder of the Illuminati, to combat the reformation and propagate the faith. (Reformation being salvation thru grace instead of the Catholic Church.) The Jesuit General, and the other high Jesuit Generals, they are sorcerers. They are LUCIFERIAN, and they worship what they would call Lucifer. They do not believe in Satan. They believe in Lucifer. This society is the power behind the Presidents, and the rest of the world.. The Jesuits obviously wrote the Protocols Of The Learned Elders Of Zion, because they have carried out every protocol in that little handbook. They have carried everything out. The Black Pope........

Other bits and pieces: www.whale.to...

The present government of Israel was set up by the High Masonic Rothschild-controlled Jews, and Rothschild has had an alliance with the Jesuit General since 1876, with Adam Weishaupt. This is the very same Rothschild powers who betrayed the Jews into the hands of the Nazis, killing many Jews all throughout Europe, betraying their own Jewish people. These are the very same powers who run the nation of Israel today.
I read a very interesting paragraph by Mark Lane in his book Plausible Denial when he tells about a Jew in Israel who wrote about certain criminal Jews, involved with the Nazis, who are now with the Mossad, something along those lines. The man who wrote the article was gunned-down in front of his home.
So, Rome controls the Israeli government. It controls the Israeli government through the Mossad.
Who trained the Mossad? Reinhard Gehlen.
We find that fact in Loftus' work The Secret War Against The Jews in most telling, telling detail. So what do we have? We have high-level treason and betrayal of the Jewish race; that is there in Israel today, by their own leaders, who are loyal to Rome and the Jesuit Order. And to show this, we have a great big Rockefeller edifice in Jerusalem; we have an ophthalmology center in Jerusalem run by the Knights of Malta. There's nothing but Knights of Malta, high-level Freemasonry, and the Jesuit Order running all of Israel.

www.sangraal.com...

It’s just like Freemasonry. The lower have no idea that the High Shriner Freemasons are working for the Jesuit General. They think that they’re just doing works and being good people. But the bottom line is that the high-level Freemasons are subject, also, to the Jesuit General because the Jesuit General, with Fredrick the Great, wrote the High Degrees, the last 8 Degrees, of the Scottish Rite Freemasonry when Fredrick protected them when they were suppressed by the Pope in 1773.

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

So, you have the alignment with the Jesuit Order and the most powerful Freemason they had in the craft, Fredrick the Great, during their suppression. That is an irrefutable conclusion. And then, when you see the Napoleonic Wars, the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars carried out by Freemasonry, everything Napoleon did, and the Jacobins, whatever they did, completely benefited the Jesuit Order.

Martin: Regarding the assassination of President John Kennedy, which could take this entire interview, you say that the assassination was ordered by the Jesuit General, executed by Pope Paul VI, and carried out by the "American Pope", Francis Cardinal Spellman—who, in turn, used the Knights of Malta, Shriner Freemasons, Knights of Columbus, and Mafia Dons, including the FBI and CIA, to carry out the order from Rome. Would you explain why you believe your particular theory on the assassination to be an accurate representation of the facts?

Phelps: Sure. Alright, number one: The powers that be are properly outlined [in his book], and proven through two centuries of showing how it’s all been put together. Now, as to why, I will be conservative and stick with Fletcher Prouty’s reasons, that he outlined in his JFK and also his other book called The Secret Team.

The reason why Kennedy was assassinated was he wanted to end the Vietnam War, and he wanted to end the rule of the CIA. That begets two questions: Did Rome want the Vietnam War? And, did Rome control the CIA? The answer is yes on both counts.

We know, on its face, that the Vietnam War was called "Spelly’s War"—Cardinal Spellman’s war. He went over to the warfront many times and he called the American soldiers the "soldiers of Christ". The man who was the Commander of the American forces was a Roman Catholic, CFR member, possibly a Knight of Columbus, I don’t know, but he was General William Westmoreland.

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

So, Westmoreland was Cardinal Spellman’s agent to make sure that war was prosecuted properly. And another overseer of Westmoreland was Cardinal Spellman’s boy, Lyndon Baines Johnson. Lyndon Baines Johnson was a 33rd-degree Freemason. He was also part of the assassination, with J. Edgar Hoover, another 33rd-degree Freemason.

There is a very interesting section in Edwin R. Sherwin’s book The Engineer Core Of Hell, written in 1886 I believe—another suppressed work. It’s usually in the archives of all the older libraries back here. And he shows how this Secreta Monita was discovered in South America by a Mason, and the Mason managed to escape to a lodge after being shot. He turned the Secreta Monita over to the lodge, and then these certain Freemasons saw the Secreta Monita. There are certain low-level Freemasons who believe that the Jesuit Order is their enemy, so that’s why it was taken to the lodge and then published. But the high-level Masons, of course, work with them. The Secreta Monita was discovered once that way. It was published in Holland. Then, in 1857, reprinted by England.

Martin: Let’s talk about Elizabeth II.

Phelps: Elizabeth II is a wicked, evil queen. She is the head of the Knights of Malta in England. She curtsies to the Lord Mayor in Old London, and she goes and visits the Jesuits of Stonyhurst and kisses their derrières. She has complete allegiance to the Jesuits of Stonyhurst, and will do anything they tell her to do, or they’ll get rid of her just like they got rid of all the rest of the monarchs in Europe.

Martin: So you see her as a pawn.

Phelps: She’s just a pawn, sure. She’s nothing. Remember, White men rule the world. Evil, White, sodomite, homosexual men rule the world, and these are the High Jesuits, with their High Knights of Malta and High Freemasons, they rule. And these women who are involved are just pawns in their game, like the queen, the queen of Holland, just to give the appearance that these nations have a sovereign monarch, when in fact, they’re just tools.

England has done some awful, terrible things, but all of the things that they have done increase and benefit the Jesuit Order. They never resisted Napoleon III. Napoleon III was a fanatical Roman Catholic Freemason, subject to the Jesuits, who was the King of France for 18 years, second Empire. England never resisted him. They fought with him in the Crimean War. And Napoleon III dedicated all of his ships to the Virgin Mary. England has been on the side of the Jesuits since 1815, no later. So, that means that the British Secret Service is totally working for Rome, all throughout the 1800s.

Order of the Garter is the core of the Committee Of 300 (aka Olympians). Queen Elizabeth II is the leader of this organization.

Its members include most if not all of the royal British family along with, many peers of the realm including Lord Rothschild, as well as other European nobility, and a slew of other wealthy individuals scattered across Europe and America.

These elite own businesses on every level, especially the oil and banking industry. George Bush is a recent member who was knighted by the Queen on December 20, 1993, as a Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honorable Order of the Bath.

This was for his leadership in the Gulf War, when he sent American solders to die for England's interest of their petroleum in Kuwait. General Colin Powell and General Norman Schwarzkopf were given also lower order of knighthoods. Lord Peter Carrington, who is a member of the satanic Order of Osiris and other demonic groups is a member of the Order of the Garter.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

By the way, Prince Charles Coat of Arms has another symbol --The Order of the Garter. The Order of the Garter is the parent organization over Free Masonry, world-wide. When a man becomes a 33rd Degree Mason, he swears allegiance to that organization, and thereby to Prince Charles.

www.vaticanassassins.org...

A Papal conspirator in the assassination of Israel’s Masonic Prime Minister, Yitzak Rabin, Freemason Shimon Peres, who was educated by Jesuits as a youth in Poland and now the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Zionist Israel, is being welcomed to the Jesuit General’s Council on Foreign Relations, based in New York’s Harold Pratt House, by its Masonic Chairman of the Board, Peter G. Peterson, and by one of its Directors, Leslie H. Gelb, on September 29, 1993. Shimon Peres also holds shares in the PLO's public phone company, Paltel, in conjunction with the Bin Laden Royal Family of Saudi Arabia and Yassir Arafat! Since there is an obvious Bush/Bin Laden business connection through the CFR,s Carlyle Group headed by Edward Cardinal Egan's Knight of Malta Frank C. Carlucci, why should not there be a similar connection between Peres, Bin Laden and Arafat? For they are all in the same Masonic Brotherhood's "Invisible Empire" overseen by the sovereign Grand Master and Commander of all - the Black Pope.


A Papal mass murderer of Jewish People, “Chairman” of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) and professional agitator, Freemason Yassir Arafat is also being welcomed by the Archbishop of New York’s Council on Foreign Relations in the person of one of its “Presiders”, Lee H. Hamilton, on January 20, 2000.

A History of the War between English and French Freemasonry
www.scarletandthebeast.com...

[edit on 23-11-2005 by peopledying]

[edit on 23-11-2005 by peopledying]

[edit on 23-11-2005 by peopledying]

Originally posted by peopledying
FYI I follewed all this for a long time before becoming a member so had lots of time to read and get to know some of the Masons positions here. I espicially liked a few of the members educated knoxledge of occult topics and I thank them for it. I have not had their years of study along these lines. Then I found the recent material about the Jesuit/Mason connection. I felt it was so convincing I should try to expose more people to it so I stepped in.

What I still don't understand is you have posted that the Jesuits control Freemasonry, then you posted that the order of the Garter controls Freemasonry, and you agreed with the poster that thinks the O.T.O. controls Freemasonry. what's correct? And how is this control put into action?

I'm also wondering why you don't notice the bigotry that's just seeping out of that post. Here I am the big evil occultist, and that really repulsed me.

My original request -- and that of others -- was that you provide some evidence to support this statement:

i]Originally posted by markusjharper
And don’t even bother (Masons) to tell me that Hall was not a Mason or became one later, lest you forget that he taught Masonry to Grand masters before ever joining a lodge.

Originally posted by markusjharper
Just because I like you DD:

Care to share your "evidence"? I for one would LOVE to see some!

((snip sophomoric attempt at insult))
I want you to know that I share files over P2P with millions upon millions of people while you sleep.

Ooooh -- you've managed to download and install a copy of Kazaa or some other Napster clone? Well Gawrsh, Mickey -- that's impressive! Doesn't exactly constitute "evidence" though... Maybe there'll be some in the rest of your post...

Not to mention – a few years ago I read THE book which exposed the Federal Reserve as a true Cartel and I decided to change my name to be human by freeing myself up from the STRAWMAN status!

Slow down, I'm slow. Wouldn't want to miss your "evidence"...

So... You read a book a few years ago... [someone PLEASE take note of how I let this softball sail right by -- it warn't easy, I tell you!]
...Something about "the Federal reserve" being "a cartel"... Never mind, looking for "evidence"...

...You changed your name to be human... Much as it pains me, I have to ask -- What were you before?

... and freed yourself up from the strawman status... So, you were a "strawman" before changing your name made you human? Never mind, one of us has to focus -- we're looking for "evidence" here, remember?

I also applied my knowledge and took advantage of taxes (income tax is an un-Constitutional hidden tax

This may be the first semi-coherent and supportable thing you've said since you arrived.

Bra-VO!

I agree wholeheartedly that income taxes are unconstitutional. That will provide much comfort when one is sitting in Federal Prison for refusing to pay them. I also can't help but remember that in your opening post on this thread you "demanded" that you get "all your tax money back." -- But remember, we're looking for "evidence"... How is this relevant?

Let's get back to the variety show...

...something about "Morgan & Warburg and others" "real estate" "financial independence" and the fact that you "feel for" me. Lots of "ick" factor, but no "evidence" there either.

I'm aware of the concept of "pole shift" but have no clue how this relates to the "evidence" you promised. I actually have "prepared a penny" but not for a "pole shift." I wouldn't know how! How does one prepare a penny for a pole shift? Do we have it sit down, get it a glass of water then break it to it gently? Will preparing the penny help me when the pole shift comes? Am I to help it? PLEASE -- if I can't get this penny thing sorted out I'll have to go back to my AFDB, and my wife used up all the tinfoil on her genetically-engineered factory-farmed tryptophan laden fowl.

((snip some stuff about how you "disobey US copyright laws, and some other non-sequitur about income tax again.))

Hello -- McFly? We're looking for EVIDENCE! PLEASE try to focus?!

originally posted by DD...posting of a link to Mr. Hall's bio, and naming a video biography, doesn't constitute evidence, it constitutes name dropping. Surely you can do better than that.

Quotes from a reputable and verifiable source, with attribution of source and page number or approximate location in video, may constitute evidence, but then with all of your "advanced studies" you should know this.

Who's playing games here?

(response from you) Have you ever heard of informal writing?

I posted a link to his Bio which mentions his expertise and when Hall, died there was held in the Carnegie Hall a passing the memorial service to him. Many top Masons mentioned how he was not only their mentor, but that he was an older soul, so to speak. I can get the Masons names for you, if you’re too lazy to find out yourself.

Well, finally you come back into the neighborhood of the topic! Not that it wasn't a good (if somewhat oogy) ride, but I started getting a bit uncomfortable with the whole "strawman-became human through a name-change- thing."

Yes, I have heard of "informal writing." I don't expect to find it in a place created by a person calling for the destruction of something dear to me and unquestionably good for my nation and society.

You "posted a link to his Bio which mentions his expertise" -- noone disputes that Hall was a Mason, and a man much learned in esoterica. I didn't need "a link" for this.

The fact that "when Hall, died [sic] there was held in the Carnegie Hall [sic]a passing [sic] the memorial service to [sic] him." is not in dispute either.

Many top Masons mentioned

Aw, never mind -- this is getting tiring...

how he was not only their mentor, but that he was an older soul, so to speak. I can get the Masons names for you, if you’re too lazy to find out yourself.

It's your assertion, hence it's on YOU to support it. So far everything you've posted has been nonsense, but I remain hopeful... Still, here we've come to the end of yet another post, not surprisingly still lacking any evidence whatsoever. My original request -- and that of others -- was that you provide some evidence to support JUST ONE statement:

And don’t even bother (Masons) to tell me that Hall was not a Mason or became one later, lest you forget that he taught Masonry to Grand masters before ever joining a lodge.

Well?

Originally posted by peopledying
Senrak's typical response when things get to close to comfort is

It sure is curious to ME that for someone who has 16 points and who registered on 11-22-05 would presume to say anything about my "TYPICAL" response.

Makes it seem like you've been here before...and are perhaps logging in under a different userid, hmmm?

It's also interesting that that my fruitcake reference is mentioned when one of the PC moderators has removed my picture of a troll...er...nut-ball...er...fruit...well....you know....my non PC description of the person who's posting such nonsense.

But don't let that bother you....remember...as has been stated by a dictator...er...moderator....there is no freedom of speech here.....this is a PRIVATE forum....and as such...well...

er...I'll just say....

FRUITCAKE....FRUITCAKE...FRUITCAKE....

BWA HA HA HA HA HA AHHAHAHah

Originally posted by Cug
Here I am the big evil occultist...

Hey dont forget me!!1!

on topix

hoooo god. here we go again. Mason zealots VS anti mason paranoid zealots.

I've read a lot of conspiracy books too, and most of them are filled with speculative theories that often incorporate stuff that ''comes from a firend a knew who had a uncle whose dog was beaten up daily at the CIA''. I mean, just look what are David Icke's (typical new age author - which is fine) sources when he claims masonry and OTO are linked to ''evil satanists'', the sources are like ''nexus magasine'' and other magazines of the same caliber. Same when he interviews that women, arizona wilder, about the project mk ultra. I can also spew out stories of ritual rape from top world leaders if you give me enough drugs. It does not make it false, it makes it hard to believe.

In all cases, nodoby here is a master, and i wonder in which right you people from both sides fell the urge to ''convince'' people that you hold the truth. This attitude makes you similar to religious zealots, or political zealots, that see only their point of view while ignoring the point of views of 7 billion other people. THERE IS NO TRUTH. EVERYTHING IS VALID AND FALSE, AND EVERY POSSIBLITY MUST MANIFEST ITSELF. Imo.

Anyway it is so easy on this forum. Someone makes a claim, wheter it is good, bad, absurd, stupid, or totally crazy, then everybody against it will be like ''OMG|!!!1!1! proof!!1!? sources??6?!1!1''. Just admit it people, If you claim something totally wild about aliens or satanic cults, you will propably have a hard time finding credible sources. Because sources considered ''Credible'' anyway are the media owned by the corporations that are supposed to be in the NWO conspiracy. So which sources you want? nexus magazine? david icke web site? They arent credible either. How the hell does that makes sense? Just let ppl expose their point of view, discuss it, and if you believe you hold info that proves the contrary, well YOU post it and find ''credible sources'' sources.

If we seriously want to discuss conspiracy, we need to admit that both sides of the equation may be totally wrong

peopledying, Please check your mCENTER. I sent you U2U.

Regards.

Originally posted by moonchild
[ THERE IS NO TRUTH. EVERYTHING IS VALID AND FALSE, AND EVERY POSSIBLITY MUST MANIFEST ITSELF. Imo.



If we seriously want to discuss conspiracy, we need to admit that both sides of the equation may be totally wrong

Nope. When I write regarding Freemasonry, I do so knowing that I am correct and knowing that the accuser is wrong.
What you are asking people to do is accept ignorance.

You call yourself a gnostic. To my mind gnosticism is all about discovering Truth and discarding falsehoods - not embracing the latter. Why should other subjects be any different?
True this is a conspiracy site, but it is also a site set up to Deny Ignorance. So although people can print their point of view it is imperative that somebody else can state an opposing one - especially when the former is based on ignorance.

I have been here for 3 years, active in all forums. I consider myself a fan of some conspiracy theories. Yet if I had a penny for every time that I saw people in the Sercret Society forum trying to deny a right to reply, I would probably have £1.36 by now. You can't call for one rule for the creator of the conspiracy and another for the refuter - especially when the onus on proof rides with the accuser and especially when a lot of the accusations have no foudation in logic but are based on ignorance and hatred.







[edit on 24-11-2005 by Leveller]

Originally posted by markusjharper
Most Masonic lodges are tax exempt foundations under Section 501(c)(3) of the internal revenue code. So are many other organizations like churches but they are not secret, nor claim to be.

My complaint is directed toward ALL secret societies and not just Masonry. I do not want to lose my hard-earned tax money to the government, so they can allow tax-exempt status for organizations which consider itself anything other than fully disclosed to the public. I demand ALL my money back and I want all secret societies to know that I support your demise - simple as that! Don't like it, well tough! In this New Age, I am really truly sick and tired of you people and all your secrets and I’m tired of cry babies who want to stand by and let it all happen; because they don’t believe in any conspiracies. If you don’t then I got news for you pal! You deserve to be a slave. Don’t like it, fine go and clean my car for me and my toilets and everything else I tell you and don’t argue about it? I hope to get many Mason slaves cleaning my bathroom also. Now, we already got enough secrets going on at the CFR/ Bilderburgs, to get us to the point where we are now on the verge of plunging into the abyss of Hell.

If you got some crazy fetish or like to swim in poop on your free time, it's none of my business. You like wearing woman’s underwear – fine by me! Just as long as I’m not paying for it and it doesn’t get political by setting public policy. But I tell you that all too often these stupid societies are being setup to have political influence and with all the fear mongering going on these days, I say it has come time that ALL people demand full disclosure, else we take it up a notch. I am not advocating loss of any rights or inciting violence but I’m talking more like turning into Alex Jones over night and really making a fuss!! I insist that anything secret should be written down as a parable (the way Christ did it) and nothing more than that.

We don't need any more OTO, Golden Dawn, Bilderburgs or Masonry garbage. Plus we got Crème and his Lucifer Trust, who has openly advocated turning all control over to the UN and anyone who disagrees; to be nuked! Now, I intend to support any engine which will ultimately expose them and destroy them in entirety, along with its subsidiaries. So who has the guts to stand with me and fight this evil? Who will speak out and write books about these things, a Mason? I can hardly remember the last time a Mason ever wrote a book exposing any of the dangerous secret societies, can you? One Mason was John Robison who wrote “Proofs of a Conspiracy" but the Masons say he was not a Mason, how typical of them.

I truly find it insulting that these groups think they can know what is better for the rest (of us dummies) and thus we are not trusted. I suppose that Manly Hall was lying, when he said that Masonry is a secret society, within a secret society. Can’t it get any more secret than that? And don’t even bother (Masons) to tell me that Hall was not a Mason or became one later, lest you forget that he taught Masonry to Grand masters before ever joining a lodge.

Marcus, just WHO are you to dictate what othes may choose to keep private or make public? I didn't notice that God has died and there was a vacancy for that station. The very country you are living in with all its freedoms was launched by Masons (George Washington,etc) Benjamin Franklin was a Rosicrucian. That your mouth can even open to express such nonsense without having a boot shoved in it was courtesy of the Masons and many secret societies. The "public" schools in Texas were run by masons for a long time, before taken over by the state. Much GOOD is quietly done all around the world for others, but not tooted from the rooftops or made a public spectacle. Modesty and humility are STILL considered virtues by members of the various brotherhoods, such that they keep their good works QUIET, not reported to the newspapers and bragged about.

As to "secrecy", sacred things are kept private and away from the eyes (and tongues) of those who would profane them. You don't care for that? Tough--get over it. Even religionists would resent the profane from running around in their churches, prying into things out of gross curiosity, trampeling those things that they hold dear into the mud of ignorance and crudeness.

Sorry my friend, we will keep our "secrets" until those like you grow up enough to appreciate and respect them. Then, if you show yourself worthy and with the right ATTITUDE, we will welcome even you into our fold. The door is never closed to those who seek in the right manner.

MM. FRC.

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by Trinityman
OK. Lets eliminate all secret societies.

First thing we have to do is define 'secret society' so we can begin to draw up our list of proscribed organizations.

What do you mean by the term 'secret society'?

Any chance of an answer?

That'll be a No then.

Senrak if you bothered to read carefully you would have seen what I said about spending a lot of time reading here before contributing, it is not so difficult to understand and does not require conspiracy theories. Who knows who you really are either. Actually I am beginning to wonder why you supossed Masonshang out here. You don't contribute much beyond some occult info. Are you just doing PR or in it for the entertainment? I thought you would be out doing charitable works. Possibly you are not Masons at all but watchers?

Have any of you except Markus actuall bothered to read the documentation in the 3 links I provided, the two from forbidden knowledge and the other one?

I did not write it I discovered it. It made a lot of sense to me. I have researched some of it and have not found any obvious hoaxes so far. There is nothing to debate here if you don't read it. You know the info contained in those links is very depressing and I would be thrilled if any of you care enought about the world to read it, the whole damn miserable lot of it. Maybe you tell me it is not true and show me why. I would be forever grateful if you would because I don NOT want the world continuing down this path. Is that not why peole are in to determining the truth about conspiraccys. I can see a lot of you are just in it for the entertainment value. It is full of references and researchable documentation but ias it covers many centuries it is a lot to work with. I think some of you don't really want to know, just like the average population.

For another of you poor readers the supposition is that the (specially selected) high Masons answer to the Jesuits THROUGH the Order of the Garter. I was trying to extract some excerpts to awaken you interest enought to actaully read the links through which apparently you haven't.

Markus I apparently don't have enough posts to use that feature but I don't know the answer to your question. I will look for the ebook or perhaps buy a copy (using cash).

By the way noone has refuted a single point mentioned in the links so don't complain about lack of evidence. The evidence is in the links and it is the best material in my opinion I have after quite some effort looking into these sorts of topics. So basicall read it, refute it or shutup.