Abbas threatens resignation

Abbas is gone.
Maybe arafat feared a coup? And thats why he didn't want to hand over control of the security forces.

politics.guardian.co.uk...

I heard that he resigned on the BBC but they can't get confirmation that Arafat has accepted it.

Mycroft: I have to agree with Skadi a bit on this one, I am sure the Israelis know exactly what buttons to push to get the Palestinian militant to go bonkers and attack.

Here's a PERFECT example.

www.dfw.com...

"Israeli commandos killed a Hamas bombmaker in a firefight Friday and pulverized the 7-story apartment building in which he had been hiding, leaving dozens of Palestinians homeless and prompting charges that soldiers meted out collective punishment.

An Israeli soldier was killed and four were wounded in the battle, which took place after soldiers surrounded the 3-year-old building and ordered residents out. The Israelis said they blew up the structure more than six hours after the fighting ended because they believed some militants might be inside.


Hours later, 8-year-old Bakr Sobah searched through the rubble, looking for his books and school bag. "I have homework in my notebooks. What can I do now?" the boy said. "We had a house here, now we don't."....

Kordi said that after midnight, he and three other men were taken into the building as "human shields," leading the way as soldiers, accompanied by dogs, searched various apartments. Israel's Supreme Court has outlawed the practice of using human shields; the army had no immediate comment.....

Kordi disputed Feingold's contention that the Israelis blew up the building because they feared some militants remained inside.


Several residents were allowed back into the building at midmorning to pick up a few belongings, he said, arguing that it appears unlikely soldiers would have permitted residents to go back into the building if they feared militants were still hiding there.


"There was no reason (for the demolition)," he said. "It was just for revenge."


Adnan Asfour, a Hamas spokesman in Nablus, said the group would help those made homeless by paying rent on a new apartment for a year and buying some furniture. The Nablus municipality said it would also pitch in.""

So in other words, they've stoked any hatreds these Palestinians have AND they've given Hamas something to do. To help all these displaced people. Next will be one of them blows his top and straps on explosives and blammo.

I can see it, you can see it, you better believe Israel can see it. A 7 story apartment building?

jako

The bus bombing that killed twenty-one Israeli's was retalitation for the killing of Mohammed Sidr, a very popular Islamic Jihad leader.

Days before the IDF surround Sidr's house and opened fire--an angry mob stormed the palestinian prison he was in and demanded his release. Any leader should know that if you kill someone that beloved by the people the consequences will be deadly. Thus the bus bomb, and now the new cycle of violence. All of this brought on by the killing of one man.

link to the story

you can't blame Arafat for everything. israel gives him all the power he needs every time the kill a so called "militant" without thinking...it is a war after all. they are just as responsible for the violence and death as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Arafat.

Saphronia retaliation usually indicates an equal reaction. Murdering a bunch of kids on a bus in "retaliation" for a known and proven "popular" terrorist leader is as far from equal as you can get.

Fact is the bus bomb was specifically orchestrated at a specific time to derail the return of those two towns to the PA. It wasn't in retaliation for crap.

Also if busting a murderous criminal is going to arouse the ire of the people, tough #. Choose your battles wisely. If Mr. Sidr was a philantrhopist who helped the poor then fine. But go blow people up on behalf of a murderer? Sorry, that just doesn't hold water.

Oh here's the latest developement from CNN.

Abbas will preside over a caretaker role until a new government is sworn in, which could take about 90 days, chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat said.

Good job... no government for 3 months. I'll bet the PA security will be able to rein in terrorism now... yeah... kinda like a chicken without a head.

DJ: laugh if you like but it is the reality that israeli's live in so whether you think the bombing is equal enough to be considered a retaliatory act or not...it is how the game is played. and the "terrorist" aren't looking for specific targets they're looking for whatever/whenever. that's another reality ...the leaders should be aware before they start throwing stones...and that goes for both sides. mmhmm...yeah, israel didn't throw the first stone in this one ??? did you read the article?

they killed Sidr on the 14th--Hamas declared revenge and the bus was bombed on the 19th...that's just the facts.

but of course a few smilies makes one right no matter what they say...much love.

Oh here we go, another ass taking my entire point, throwing it out and basing their criticism on me inserting an emoticon. If that's all you're gonna say then pardon my french but you're a #ing fool.

All I said was your term of retaliation was a misused one, as you can not claim the removal of a proven murderer is on par with the bombing of a bunch of children. That is as stupid as saying putting to death the Abortion doctor's murderer now justifies the murder of 21 other doctors.

Argue with my points and that's fine. Criticize me for tossing in a smilie and you're an ignorant ass. My post was not empty besides that emoticon. Grow up for god's sake, what the hell are you thinking?

A lot of you seem to be missing the point here.
The most important issue here is that the Palestinians are giving the impression that they are totally split over this process.

On the one hand you have a Prime Minister who signed up to a Roadmap sponsored by the rest of the world.
On the other you have Arafat who also signed up but is now seen as standsing in the way of that Roadmap.


The fact that the Palestinians seem so disorganised plays right into their enemy's hands. There is weakness in disunity.

As for stating that nobody (even Arafat) can stop the militants? That's not entirely true. The PA knows where each and every Hamas member is. Within the PA there are those who are aware of every move that Hamas makes. With Arafat's blessing, the Palestinain security forces could dismatle their militant groups and severely damage their capabilities. It's possible that one or two might slip through the net, but it's entirely within Arafat's capabilities to reduce the threat from Hamas which will be acceptable in Israel's eyes.

Abbas may have resigned and it may have been accepted. But Arafat is a wily old fox. He would have expected this to happen and you can guarantee that there is some contingency plan being put into place even now.
It is entirely possible that Arafat has staged this resignation as he knows that Israel will then be obliged to eliminate Hamas and do his dirty work for him whilst he retains credibility within the eyes of the Palestinian population.
A Palestinian leader who dismantles the militant groups will eventally become a target himself. Arafat probably knows this - and what better way to manipulate public opinion amongst the militants, than to look like he is supporting them whilst they are slowly being destroyed?
When the dust settles Arafat will turn around and say that his hands are clean of his own people's blood. The reality is that he has probably instigated and sped up their downfall.

Djarums: "Fact is the bus bomb was specifically orchestrated at a specific time to derail the return of those two towns to the PA. It wasn't in retaliation for crap."

?? Hamas even claimed responsibility for the bombing and claimed it was in response to that specific Israeli action. You're saying Hamas did it to STOP the pullout of settlements and IDF troops? Whaa?

"Also if busting a murderous criminal is going to arouse the ire of the people, tough shyte. Choose your battles wisely. If Mr. Sidr was a philantrhopist who helped the poor then fine. But go blow people up on behalf of a murderer? Sorry, that just doesn't hold water."

Well, to quote the article: "(Sidr), who Israeli officials said was at least partly responsible for the deaths of 19 Israelis over the past two years". So there's no actual proof to ME or to anyone else that he WAS a "murderous criminal". What is "partly responsible for deaths"? Do you know for a fact that Sidr was a 24-7 Jew-killer?

I'm no expert, but once you start assassinating leaders of the "resistance", you're screwed. You're creating martyrs, stoking hatreds, and quickening an ever increasing cycle of violence.

Dead men are far easier to worship than still living ones.

And whoever said Arafat was a wily old fox, you're partly right, he IS old. As for the wily fox bit, I think that's kind of an urban myth.

jakomo

I don't agree with targeting leadership in that fashion. I think targeting Yassin was stupid.

I personally do not think the Yassin attack was meant to kill him though rather than to scare him. It's not like the Israelis to be that clumsy when dealing with a top guy. I think it played out similar to the Spaceballs scene in which Dark Helmet states "I said across her nose, not up it!"

Its not up to us to decide how the Palestinians respond to Israeli aggression that was my only point DJ. Just as the President and Colin Powell have said it is counterproductive to the peace process for Israels to target Hamas and Islamic Jihad leadership. They not only under-cut the frail Palestinian government but they shoot themselves in the foot.

Surely anyone can see that both sides are out of control at this point. Finger pointing will get them no where. It is time for Israel to practice a little restraint and since they won't it seems logical to assume that this is the type of atmosphere some in their leadership want.

The purpose of my post on this thread was not to get in a tit-for-tat ur an idiot type of net beef. If I wanted that I would go somewhere other than ats. Truthfully, we are both here just sharing our opinions. Put your nasty temper in your pocket, sir. Your wasting it on me.

Originally posted by Saphronia
Surely anyone can see that both sides are out of control at this point. Finger pointing will get them no where. It is time for Israel to practice a little restraint and since they won't it seems logical to assume that this is the type of atmosphere some in their leadership want.

It would be nice if restraint from Israel was all it would take to resolve this violence and bring peace to that region, but it's going to take restraint from both sides.

This article has a little more information on the activities Sidr was involved in before he died:

216.26.163.62...

If you could have commented on my points without resorting to lame 4th grade style bickering about emoticons, the whole thing would not have happened saphronia. I don't reply in that fashion to people who I'm debating with. Then again I have yet to see people criticize me over something that petty.

MyCroft: truly, Sidr was a criminal and deserved to be behind bars. I wasn't disputing that. My charge was that Israel accomplished nothing by his death. Killing one leader at a time is not going to end this. Sure as the day dawns he has a replacement. They need a strong Palestinian government in place that can control and capture the terrorist. Killing one bad man among many only serves the agenda of those that don't want peace.

Originally posted by Saphronia
MyCroft: truly, Sidr was a criminal and deserved to be behind bars. I wasn't disputing that. My charge was that Israel accomplished nothing by his death. Killing one leader at a time is not going to end this. Sure as the day dawns he has a replacement. They need a strong Palestinian government in place that can control and capture the terrorist. Killing one bad man among many only serves the agenda of those that don't want peace.

One can also expect civilized behavior from the Palestinian-Arabs and call upon them to show restraint. Blowing up a buss full of worshipers only serves the agenda of those that don't want peace.

ha, no doubt.

But, at the same time we're talking about terrorist who believe their ideals are revolutionary. When peace isn't getting them anywhere they are bound to fall back into their old patterns of violence.

I expect more from Israel admittedly because they are an estiblished government. They know when they kill a leader of Hamas or Islamic Jihad there is going to be death in their streets. It seems they would tread carefully and work the plan...and the Roadmap is a decent plan one of the only things I think Bush has gotten right so far.

As saphronia said Israel should not be in the business of killing terrorists. I feel that it should not be necessary to kill these people. I think that it should be the responsibility of the Palestinian Authority to control them and stop them from their business of death. They aren't Israeli citizens, they are Palestinians. The Palestinians have a governing body now, and that is who should chase them down. Abbas was moving towards that step, at least he promised to use the armed forces of the PA as a leverage tool to perhaps negotiate them down. But... we all see where the real Palestinian Leadership tossed Abbas for having such ideas. We all agree that the extremist who commit murder need to be handled. I think Israel should not have to do these attacks on them at all.

Bring the Palestinians a real government with their own people at the helm (not a power hungry, self serving, traitor to his own people), and such things will slowly end.

Why expect more from Israel because it is "established"?
Using that logic, their actions are justified against the Palestinian rabble.

The plain fact is that the Roadmap called on the Palestinian Authorities to start dismantling it's terrorist organisations. It plainly, unarguably and unequivocally did not do this.

The onlooker has to ask why?

Why sign up to a process which plainly states your first goal and then utterly fail to even try and meet that goal?

Why appoint Prime Minister who is acceptible to Israel and the West and then force him from power?

Why replace Abbas with Ahmad Qurei?



The answer is Arafat. Not the Israelis. What you are seeing is Arafat clinging onto power and using his people and the peace process as pawns.
It doesn't matter what move the Israelis make. If it threatens Arafat's personal position as Palestinian leader there is no action that he will not take or instigate to retain his grip on power.

Peace? Only with Arafat dead.

Leveller: You can't put this all on Arafat's back. He didn't kill Sidr--he might have organized his release knowing that Israel would respond and kill the peace process. Israel looks just as guilty if not more and maybe that's what Arafat wanted. If that's the case they played right into his hands.

Abbas gave up, again not all of this can be blamed on Arafat. He didn't stay long enough to fight for power. Obviously he wasn't a strong leader, and he didn't have the faith of the people. Arafat has been the only leader for decades and it's going to take longer than a four month term to grab his power. Abbas was the wrong guy, he was too weak and folded under the pressure. He wasn't the type to make things happen.

The thing is you can't always think death is going to solve the problem...you kill or exile Arafat and there will be war for years to come, but if you render him obsolete you might have a chance for peace. Not everything can be solved with a bullet. On these matters the Israeli government acts like a child and not a government. They know that these assassinations do not work still they continue to do it like they are making some progress when they are only putting their peoples lives in danger.

Killing Arafat would immortalize him. One would imagine the thought that probably stays in a lot of people's heads in Israel and the US government is a legendary quote from Austin Powers... "Why won't you die?"