The Juxtaposition of the "Good" and "Bad" of Iraq

Lately, I've seen a lot of threads regarding Iraq that go something like this:

Poster A: Iraq is one hell of a can of worms, and here's why.....

Poster B: Why are you focusing on the bad in Iraq? We should focus on the good, such as.....

Occasionally it goes the other way around, but more often than not its the way I illustrated.

My question is, how does this help "deny ignorance"? There is a fundamental flaw here. When someone brings up a topic, that topic should be explored to the best extent possible. Yet what I am seeing more and more often is people attempting to shift the focus of the thread from its original purpose to an exploration of some other aspect of the occupation.

This is not a simple matter of point/counterpoint. This is deeper. It's not like saying, "well, to explore point A, we have to consider the opposing view, -A." It's saying, "no, don't explore point A, explore point B instead, which supports an entirely different and unrelated proposition to point A (rather than merely the opposite of point A)."

This isn't just a board issue, I'm seeing it in the media also. People are so eager to present the forest as either something good or bad that they are either refusing or neglecting to address the trees individually.

It's counterproductive, and reeks of favoring the advocation of an agenda over a presentation of the facts. No real debate, or anything productive at all, will come from this kind of reactionism. You won't get anywhere by throwing unrelated facts to juxtapose them with the related ones, for any given point, just to prove that the occupation is either going well or going bad, unless of course that was the initial subject, which it rarely seems to be.

Anyway, my two cents. Take them as you will.

-koji K.

Excellent post, you get a WATS vote from me.

Most people have already made up their minds on the Iraq War, so they're not coming here to form opinions, but to justify them.

I'm as guilty of this as anyone else, I made up my mind that Iraq was a mistake a long time ago. I tend to be quite skeptical of the stories about building schools and the like: sure, these are good things, and I don't doubt most of the forces there sincerely hope to be constructive and stabilize the country.

This doesn't mitigate the fact that by rushing to war without properly planning for the occupation, we were the ones who destabilized the country in the first place.

And there is little anyone can do to change my mind about that.

Most people here, pro or anti, are in the same boat.
We're not here to question our own opinions but to challenge those of our opponents.

You make a wonderful point, koji_K. I see this here on ATS and in the media as well. It seems to be a tactic or a symptom (or maybe both) of the division in our country at this time.

If one person brings up a position, someone is sure to immediately bring information into the mix as if to say, "Your point is invalid and here's why..." In other words, "Shut-up, you're wrong." It makes discussion of the original point very difficult, and maybe that's the tactic.

Another possibility is that when a person brings up a position, someone is sure to immediately feel attacked and feel a need to defend their point of view, which seems to have been challenged by the original position. That's the symptom. A need to defend a position as 'right'.

Oh, and people who bring up your point of view in the middle of one of these threads get completely ignored!

[edit on 24-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

In answer to your question as to how the discussion , and the showing of images here on ATS, is not discussing ignorance regarding the "War against Terrorism"
Let me just say that i am against the WAR as are many here, but i do and will continue to support the troops.

My way of denying the ignorance, is by posting images that are not media orientated. IE, they are taken by the people on the ground so to speak. They speak a thousand words.
If this goes against what you perceive should be happening on ATS, then i apologize.
But i will not apologize for posting any images that i deem fit for ATS, nor will i apologize for any story that i have to tell relating to my sons tour of duty. (and he has some too, U2U me if you want the link to the story)

I recall a thread the other day about the Good Things Happening in Iraq. Lots of people discussing the good. But then Iraq: The Unseen War about the darker side of the war is posted, and it seems like it's not OK to talk about and explore the very real side of the issue.

I wonder if people just aren't able to handle the truth of the negative side of this action. There are streams of happy pictures posted in the 'dark' thread, apparently to discount or deny the idea that there is anything 'bad' happening over there. Is it an insecurity of position? Is it the inability to admit or face the whole truth? Is it a way to throw off the discussion?

Bah! I'm frustrated about it. And there's no emoticon for that. )#$(*_$* There.

Benevolent Heretic..
I would love to post some non media based images of Iraq, but ATS is not the place to do it. (Nor is some of security issues surrounding some of the images.)

I can deal with the negative side of this issue posted here.

I have posted here, and stood up for what i think people should be allowed to see.
Alas, and its sad that the general public will never get to see the true side of the War while ever the media is censored.

Originally posted by Bikereddie
Benevolent Heretic..
I would love to post some non media based images of Iraq, but ATS is not the place to do it. (Nor is some of security issues surrounding some of the images.)

Oh, I totally understand and agree. Your pictures were fairly neutral and realistic. It wasn't your pictures I was referring to. And I'm not saying the negative pictures should be posted in an ATS thread, they shouldn't. I'm saying I would have liked to discuss the darker side of this war, the hidden aspect, without the underlying, distracting argument that what we were saying was invalid.

I know we could have gone on and discussed it, ignoring the distractions, but I lose interest when I feel like I'm on a playground. Maybe I'll take another look at it now that things have settled down a bit.

Thank you for your responses. I'm glad I'm not alone in noticing what I've been noticing.

Bikereddie- I should make clear that I'm not in any way criticizing or complaining about the posting of images from Iraq (of any sort). You do a service, to ATS and to me personally (and I'd imagine many others here) by your posts. The sorts of posts I'm speaking of aren't those posts for the sake of presenting information, its posts that are made with the intention of contradicting someone elses point of view with material/images/information that is completely irrelevant to the original post or topic. I have never seen you do this.

I also support the troops, but am against the war. I feel that the troops and those Iraqis who want to see a better future for their country are the only ones doing good for that country- I think the majority of politicians here and the extremists over there seem for the most part to have concerns other than the welfare of the average Iraqi, but if any good will come for them, it will be in large part made possible by our servicemen and women.

Benevolent Heretic- you've hit the nail on the head. I think posts like "Good Things Happening in Iraq" are fine- because there are of course good things happening in Iraq, as well as bad. But when people start posting material that would be appropriate for "Good Things Happening in Iraq" in other posts which are NOT about good things happening in Iraq (like "Iraq: The Unseen War"), its a different story- its completely counterproductive. I'm not just talking about these two threads of course, but they are good examples of what I'm seeing more and more of both on ATS and in the media.

xmotex: Thanks for your support! I think you make an excellent point- as you said, "Most people here, pro or anti, are in the same boat. We're not here to question our own opinions but to challenge those of our opponents."

I've always found the diversity of ATS to be a welcome thing, even if its frustrating at times to feel surrounded by people with different views to my own. I dont think I'd come here though if everyone shared my opinions on everything... part of what makes ATS unique I think is that you will, from time to time, have to question your own opinions, whether you want to or not. These are the times when ATS proves its worth.

-koji K.