Interesting information on the "Christianity is a copy of Pagan Myths" Theory

Thanks for your post.
No problem on the Christmas post. I understood that you were posting in response to MSN Evil's post. I merely point out for reference that I dont celebrate Christmas or any other holiday or birthdays.
My point about Christmas is that there is no such instruction olde or new testaments to celebrate a birthday. There however are records that birthdays were celebrated in pagan nations and by pagan customs.
It is obvious that in the Hebrew nation and in Christianity ..all days belong to the Lord not men. This is where the Hebrews often got into trouble when they often in secret adopted the customs of the nations surrounding them and tried to secretly incorporate these customs as if they were the Law of Moses. They never were the Law of Moses.
The significance to any knowlegable Christian is the death burial and reseruction of Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins...not his birth. And most certainly not to make a merchandizing holiday ...as the moneychangers in the temple...out of it. Abomination.
Christmas is nothing more than the bastardization of Christian doctrine with the traditions of men for power and control over people. This is not Christianity. It is however ..feminine principle of fertility. Right out of the ancient fertility cults. It is matriarchial.
Just try to wean any woman or the effeminate off the Christmas holiday. Watch their reaction. They love the prettys..they love the beauty ..no matter how ugly it becomes for others. No matter how many souls go down the tubes annually to finance this abomination. This is the essence of the femminine..martricarchial doctrine ..it is feudal in its nature. Its like being on drugs..and drugs are part of paganism too. This one is just a spiritual drug but no less potent.

You keep trying to put the femminine martriarchial doctrine in terms of female..it is not ..it is feudal ..not femminine. It is very attractive to the effeminate but not totally female in nature. It is about power and acquiring power. A seperate class of people in a feudal structure ..often not known or understood by the bulk of peoples as they think this is normal. It is not normal. It is however the record of the types of governments we see in most nations going back in recorded history with the exception of one long lasting government ..The United States. There are very strong indicators that someone here and outside this country wants to bring us back to this ancient femministic matriarchial form of government as if it is the greatest thing going.
Remember something Midnight Destroyer. The women of this world are not going to do the work, sacrafice and commitments necessary to keep a industrial , economic world going. Why would they when they can train men to follow their clues and cues. Options is what they want. Queen Bee options under this Matriarchial system..This is what feudalism is ...a royal class living well off of eveyone else. A dual class system.
The Dual class system is exactly what the American system was trying to get away from in the founding of our Constitution. A different system from Europe ..in everything..property ownership..rights and in religion.
Do not think for one minute that these founders were ignorant of the role religion had played in nations going back to Ancient Egypt, Rome and others. They knew the dangers of these systems and their historys.
The halls of education and politics in a closed shop enviornment is where this drivel survives...because among Americans who know ..they will reject this stuff. Americans are not a royalty type people. It is ok for other countries but not here.
It sickens me to see Prince Charles come here to American and hobknob around Colonial Williamsburg or Margret Thatcher. It is as if they have control over the college and doings here.
Same with Hollywood..these people come in like Royalty and spreading confusion with much of what they try to do politically. As if they have some kind of free pass to play through ..they know better than the bulk of Americans how we should live our lives and think...I dont think so. Hollywood is not Royalty. It sickens me to watch Hollywood and politicians hobknob together ..including the Governor of California.

The femminist doctrine and femminisim itself is going back to the matriarchial forms of influence in that they must work in a Occult manner..part and parcel of the Ancient Mystery Religions which can be traced back to ancient times. Occult ..meaning concealed, esoteric, hidden, covert. It is about power and acquiring power. Do not confuse this with women running things. This is the standard party line to cause confusion.
One tell tale sign of this drivel is the common reference point of wanting to return back to something in the past which was so great that it must be restored today. In some circles this is called " The Restoration of the true Brotherhood." " The New Age." and others. They all have matriarical origins. This is always a tell tale give away.

I will point out another view not seen in history books Midnight Destroyer about this Matriarcial form of Government and education, and media influence.
In American the abortion issue which seems to have been so important for so many years is losing ground. In its heyday it was actually about a instrument or process which would gaurantee womans votes in the voting booth .not about abortion per se. They never cared about how many children died in abortions...this was not the issue though many Christians ignorantly made it so by fighting against this placebo. Talk about a dumb bunch of people. In politics where it counted the issue was never were you qualified for a particular office. The litmus test was what was your stance on abortion. Talk about liars.phoneys. This is what happened and the system got turned upside down for votes.
Same with Gay issues ..though this one may be overturned by terrorism issues. Gay issues were for the purpose of cultivating a controllable , predictable voting block.
Racial issues too..controllable predictable voters. All three of these emotional issues with a visable fingerprint when you peel pack the veneer and look underneath. All standard issue victimization principles at work. This is occult. femminine, matriarcial at work. Both partys will use or misuse this to gain votes...but never educate the public as to what is happening.

When you begin to see it for what it is..you begin to examine much around you ..and if you understand the Word..you examine it through the Word itself. This is why so many downplay the Word in these rooms...because when you know about certain Occult practices in the Word and contrast this with the real Light it becomes obvious.

One more thing Midnight Destroyer..when you see history and read it carefully through this knowlege and new eyes ..something becomes very obvious. Most of history is one form of Effeminate , Matriarcial form of government fighting another form of Effeminate, Matriarcial government.
Rome fits this bill of ladeling perfectly. Yet you and others must have Rome as being typically represenative of all Christianity. Rome is not. By her very history ..Rome proves this out. There are others. Rome in history has been strenuously opposed by other Matriarcial forms of Government like protestantism. Even the Anglican Church as an instrument has opposed Rome for positions of power and control for another group hidden carefully in the English Government. This is known in certain circles just not made public.
America is the boot lackey for this system of control and power doing the bidding of them for their profit. This is obvious because only Americans can be so dumb as to go to war over and over and not bring back spoils and new territorys. ...To the victors go the spoils!! Doesnt happen for America. Obviously we fight these wars for someone else. Talk about a dumb bunch of people.

Sorry for the length Midnight Destroyer..obviously I can go on and on but this is enough for now. Studying counterfits and Occult history is what I do in my spare time among other things and trying to bring it out into daily events. A tall order I will admit.
Gotta shove off for now..thanks for your patience

Orangetom

Another watchword of the system of Matriarical forms of belief or religion is the watch word "The Sacred Femminine"

This is a watchword clearly denoting the ancient pattern of fertility worship. You do not find this in the Word..Olde or New Testaments but you do find this in Occult teachings.

This pattern and its variations is very common among those who are intrested in the Matriarical forms of Government and worship.

I have seen this posted in these rooms often and immediately note that this does not come from the Word itself but from the traditions of men and they try to pass it off as holy. It is not. It is merely a play on the ignorance of many who claim to be Christian and they dont often even notice what it is and give it a free pass to play through. A dumb bunch of people these Christians.

One other mark of note in the Olde and New Testaments ...the Word.... No where in the Word do you ever find a instruction for Gods people to identify themselves by thier sexuality. ...ever. They are instructed in many things they do daily to show that they are not part of the pattern of men in this world but are a seperate people..seperated from ..not a part of the common fertility ritual..the matriarcial forms of government with all thier baggage. In short Gods people identify themselves by the God who lives in them ..not the "Sacred Femminine" or the "Worlds Standards" This is a huge difference.

Thanks,
Orangetom

david icke also shows similarities of various "gods" throughout the ages.

in his freedom road dvds

there could be a very real manipulation going on , that goes beyond

the obvious similarties [ no coincidences there ]

but most folks , just can't bring themselves to " go " where icke wants the , reader/viewer to go.

I understand . it's not easy to make the leap, not easy at all

it seems to be, a left brain, right brain thing...

I have no idea who David Icke is??

Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I have no idea who David Icke is??

Orangetom

That's okay, you're not missing anything.

David Ike its a very controvertial character, this a link to his numerous web sites and advertisments of his numerous books.

www.davidicke.com...

Originally posted by toasted
david icke also shows similarities of various "gods" throughout the ages.

in his freedom road dvds

there could be a very real manipulation going on , that goes beyond

the obvious similarties [ no coincidences there ]

but most folks , just can't bring themselves to " go " where icke wants the , reader/viewer to go.

I understand . it's not easy to make the leap, not easy at all

it seems to be, a left brain, right brain thing...

You cannot perceive what it is to KNOW that there are some things in this world that lead to the second death. There are places we shouldnt go.

Originally posted by marg6043

Today it is said that about ten thousand followers of Zoroaster are scattered in Persia.

Actuall marg6043, the largest group of followers of Zoroastrianism are not in Persia but in India.

Zoroastrianism continued to flourish, despite the halt in the expansion of the Persian empire, till the advent of Islam. It was once that the Persians were invaded by the Arabs and most of the population was converted to Islam that the religion was irreperably crippled.

But a relatively small group of Persians ended up sailing to India looking for a safe haven. They landed at Gujarat and after seeking shelter from the ruler of Jamnagar were allowed to settle there, but with one condition. They were not to spread their religion to the local population. This condition was put forward as the rulers of Jamnagar did not want any religious conflicts on their hands.

Thus the Zoroasters continued to live and thrive in India. Within India they are called 'Parsis' a direct refrence to their place of origin. The Parsis have become an important part of India society through the ages.

They have adopted the local language 'Gujarati', have become come of the biggest industrialists in mordern India and especially in Bombay (the financial capital), they are such an integral part of day to day life that it would be difficult to imagine India without its eccentric Parsi bawas

India and especially Bombay owes a lot to them.

A couple of famous Parsis

1. JRD Tata - the father of modern industries in India
2. Freddie Mercury (yes you read right, he was a Parsi) real name Firdaus

And about the topic of this thread....

It is but natural that christianity will borrow from religions that predate it (hinduism, judiaism, zoroastrianism, buddhism etc)

And one more thing. Please think logically about this. Each religion has its own 'Creation Myth', its 'Saviours', its 'Messiahs' etc etc. Who is to say that one is true and the others are not. On what basis is this to be decided. And who has the authority to do so.

Christianity is just like any other religion. Its purpose, its aim is to bring order and peace to people's lives (it is a wholly different matter that many time religions end-up doing just the opposite)

And as such i see nothing wrong in the fact that Christianity borrowed from other religions. After all you must have heard of the saying "if it aint broke, dont fix it" It makes more sense to incorporate the prevailing beliefs of the people into your new religion. They are comfortable with these old beliefs and there is simply no reason to change that.

I gotta run as of now, but will post more later

Originally posted by marg6043

Yes women were the Goddesses of the earth . . . until Christianity gave to the male species with the birth of the divine Jesus all male from a male God.

Josephat I wonder who is really the undeducated here.

You are.
From a male God?
You truly did not look into this subject did you, God is not male.

Thanks theRiverGoddess, we women in other civilizations around the world and away from chrisitanity had bigger and better roles, we were the godesses of earth.

[edit on 26-6-2005 by marg6043]

What's the point marg?
Are you looking for a religion or civilazation in which women have the biggest and best roles? Or are you actually looking for the truth?
Christianity is not "wrong" because you utterly misunderstand the roles that women have in the christian religion and culture...

I think this is a great thread by the way.
The misconceptions and blatant lies about christianity having "borrowed" all kinds of stuff from other religions are just silly and should have been eradicated from ATS a long time ago.


[edit on 6-10-2005 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko
I think this is a great thread by the way.
The misconceptions and blatant lies about christianity having "borrowed" all kinds ofstuff from other religions are just silly and should have been eradicated from ATS a long time ago.

Emphasis mine.

So a contradicting point of view is best eliminated, or debunked? Which would be a better way to "Deny Ignorance?"

Amazed Monkeys, not just for "never ceased to be" anymore...

Lies are best debunked.
When debunked lies remain to exist it is because of something worse than ignorance, call it whatever you want.

Jakko:

How do you square the Eucharist of the god Mithras which uses Bread and Wine as symbols of his Body and Blood to be eaten (and drunk !) by his followers (where Mithras is called the Saviour of the World (Gk. "Soter") which Mystery Religion was introduced into the West (i.e. the Roman Empire) from Persia (modern day Iran, under the name Mitra) via Cilician Pirates out of Tarsus (the birth place of R. Saul of Tarsus, aka Paul) in 80 BCE, some 68 years before the birth of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean?

Well?

Post Pauine "Christianity" is heavilly influenced by the Mystery Religions which preceded it, and the Mysteries of Mithras was one of the main competitors to the early Church in the Roman Empire between AD 150 and AD 460, but Mithras came first, and Christianity came later.

Some people overlook these facts.

I've read every post on this thread and I think what has really been "debunked" is any idea that Christianity did not borrow heavily from previous religions.

I agree with the poster that pointed out that there is no shame in admitting this - pretty much every major religion borrowed heavily from the previous ones. Would it be just too much irony to point out that religions evolve.

Hi Al Davison:

The obvious question is:

If early "Roman Catholic Christianity"(especially after the councils of AD 325) felt it necessary to absorb so many disparate element of much older and more sophisticated "paganism" into its belly in order to digest it and make it "palatable" to the pagan masses to accept (i.e. to "guarantee the success" of the religion for the general public) how much of the initial message (or even "inspiration", a term I use loosley) was lost in the process?

Of course, Judaeism (like all other middle eastern religious traditions) over its fairly long history made it a regular habit to do the same kind of digestion of foreign cults, in that they stole (or more politely, "borrowed heavilly" !) from earlier time tested pagan Canaanite Baalite religion (e.g. Pesach, the Limping Lamb Fertility Festival which morphed into Passover) as well as many elements from Assyro-Babylonian traditions (e.g. Gen chapter 1) when the Yahwistic priests spent so much time in Exile in a foreign country, and also Egyptian mythology and cult trappings of Amun-Ra, Maat and the monotheistic Cult of Aten (e.g. the Ark of the Covenant and the High Priest's Breast Plate, the [Heb. 'qozen] with the inlaid stones, and the Urim ve Thummim etc.), so syncretism is nothing new on the scene.

It does beg the question of how valid all these earlier (so called) "pagan"religions are in fact, if the later, "monotheistic" traditions have seen fit to steal (ahem, "borrow") so much material, imagery, cult objects, etc. directly from them, and of course it gives lie to the assumption that either Christianity or Judaeism (or Islam for that matter) is in any way a unique phenomenon without ancient pagan predecessors...

Makes one want to take a closer look at modern "belief systems", or at least, it should !

Originally posted by Al Davison
I've read every post on this thread and I think what has really been "debunked" is any idea that Christianity did not borrow heavily from previous religions.

I agree with the poster that pointed out that there is no shame in admitting this - pretty much every major religion borrowed heavily from the previous ones. Would it be just too much irony to point out that religions evolve.

Exactly! And thank you for agreeing with me.

People interpret religions accroding to their needs and wants. And the one of the biggest needs that humans have is the need for familiarity. They do not take well to new sorroundings or new ideas and embark immediately to change it to a more familiar form.

This applies to religion too. Otherwise what is the need for so many different Christian groups, the RCC, the Protestants, the Russian Orthodox, the Greek Othodox, the Syrian Catholics etc etc. This is true of all religions accross the board.

There are different groups because there are different interpretations. There are different interpretations because there are different needs. There are different need becaus there are different environments.

Hence all religions are tailored several times till the people are comfortable with it. Till they recognise it as something they have known all along. Something familiar always.

hey NEOAMADEUS

According to me religion is not so much a matter of what is right and what is worng, what is the truth and what are the lies, what is the original word and what are just misinterpretations, as much as it is about "what works for you"

Just because the modern religions have borrowed heavily from the 'pagan' ones, does not in any way reduce their credibility. Afterall they still are "Faith Systems" and if you have faith then you require nothing else

Every religion changes, even the 'pagan' ones. So there is nothing that is original and true to its first form. To discredit one would be to dicredit everyone of them.

But that is just what i think

This is why for hundreds of years christians killed millions of people for being smarter then them. Someone would make a connection, killed. Someone would realize the earth is round, killed. Women would want to be more then baby makers and were killed.

Also, in the books the Catholic Church VOTED NO on it says Mary had several children, a couple of them were disciples to their younger brother Jesus, and that Jesus had another Mary as his wife and leader of the 7 FEMALE disciples. But the Catholic Church didn't like that and VOTED NO on those books.

Hello Neoamadeus,

I'm afraid you've been suckered by a bit of anti-Christian black propaganda that circulates.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
How do you square the Eucharist of the god Mithras which uses Bread and Wine as symbols of his Body and Blood to be eaten (and drunk !) by his followers (where Mithras is called the Saviour of the World (Gk. "Soter")

Some questions that I think anyone reading this should ask themselves:

1. 'Eucharist' of Mithras? In which ancient text is this term used?

2. Why is the ritual meal with bread and wine considered special, rather than the other ritual meals celebrated by Mithraists with other ingredients?

3. Why should we translate Soter as 'Saviour of the world'?

4. Why should we equate the generic Greek term of approbation, applied to kings and the like, with the specific meaning used by Jews and Christians?

5. In which ancient text precisely is Mithras called Soter, and how does that text read in full?

6. In which ancient text is the ritual meal of this grade (which?) of Mithras initiates associated with the body and blood of Mithras?

I'm afraid that this is bunk. Many ancient religions had ritual meals of one sort or another, and getting together over food is a trivial parallel to draw. There is evidence (well after Christianity came into being) of Mithras cultists celebrating various ritual meals. But the specifics are all wrong.

which Mystery Religion was introduced into the West (i.e. the Roman Empire) from Persia (modern day Iran, under the name Mitra) via Cilician Pirates out of Tarsus (the birth place of R. Saul of Tarsus, aka Paul) in 80 BCE, some 68 years before the birth of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean?

Further questions:

1. How can we demonstrate from ancient evidence the identity of Persian Mitra with the Roman cult of Mithras? Or explain why modern scholars reject this association, erroneously asserted by Cumont?

The archaeological evidence decisively rejects the link: Mithraea, the characteristic temples of Mithras, are not found in Persia. Also the inscriptions of people praying to Mithras suggest very strongly an origin in Rome around 50AD.

There is ancient evidence for Mithras and Tarsus -- although why you associate a Jew with it you do not say. Plutarch, writing in the second century, says the Cilician pirates worshipped him. But since Perseus was venerated in Tarsus, and looks very similar, I know that modern scholars have suggested that Plutarch was simply wrong. Where is the evidence for such a cult at such a date, they ask? I myself dislike ignoring testimony, so I'm not sure how I feel about it. But anyone who wishes to assert this must grapple with it.

Well?

Post Pauine "Christianity" is heavilly influenced by the Mystery Religions which preceded it, and the Mysteries of Mithras was one of the main competitors to the early Church in the Roman Empire between AD 150 and AD 460, but Mithras came first, and Christianity came later.

Some people overlook these facts.

Not least because they are not, in fact true...

All of the information we have about Mithras is well after Christianity came into existence. Mithras was part of syncretistic paganism, and adopted features of other cults. Christianity, like Judaism, did not.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Hi Roger:

Thanks for your post.

I will only have time for a short answer this time, since unfortunately I have to dart out of town again tonight, so I suppose we should just cut to the chase here.

I find it necessary to answer your last post with separate posts of my own since you seem willing to touch upon so many disparate aspects this discussion, but I will try to be as brief as speed will allow…

First off, despite the admitted paucity of literary evidence from which to draw definitive conclusions on the matter, it is clear that those (especially those of the Christian Apologist set) who try to make a case for the late arrival of Mithraic ritual in the Roman west are overlooking certain key passages in Plutarch (c. AD 55 – c.130) in his Parallel Lives written around AD 90 but referring to the period BC 67 :

Here is the Plutarch reference to the “foreign rites of Mithras” from his Parallel Lives (Pomp. 24.5 written c: 90AD):

“In those days (i.e. c. BC 67) the [Cilician Pirates of Tarsus] offered foreign sacrifices in Lycia upon Mount Olympos, and performed their secret rituals pertaining to their sacred Mysteries (Gk. Teletai) among which those of Mithras especially have been faithfully handed down to our own day, having been revealed directly from them…”

This clearly refers to some set of Secret Mystery Rites pertaining to what modern scholars now call Roman Mithraism (as opposed to the older Persian worship of the god Mitra which seems to have misled Cumont back in the 19th century) that is, the kind of later (more familiar) Mithraism as practiced in Plutarch’s own time (i.e. c. 140AD, cf: “handed down faithfully to our own day”) which Plutarch states was introduced “faithfully” to the west as early as c. BC 67 i.e. at the close of the Roman wars against the Tarsian Pirates of Cilicia.

Additional supportive evidence from late Antiquity for Plutarch’s general stance on this subject of the foreign ethnic elements among the Pirates of Tarsian Cilicia can be found elsewhere in e.g. Appian of Alexandria (c. AD 90 to c. AD 160) in his Historia Romana of around AD 140 (of which 9 of 24 volumes managed somehow to survive) where he quotes his source (see Hist. Rom. Bell Mith 92-93) stating that these Cilician Pirates of Tarsus in c. BC 67 came into existence from the surviving remnants of the Mithradates’ army which was comprised of various eastern elements of Persian extraction:

At least this would at least explain why Plutarch thought these Cilician Pirates practiced a form of “foreign Mithraic” rituals:

93. “After Mithradates was defeated, the Pirates, relishing the material wealth they had acquired over the years seeing that they lost their livelihood and their country by reason of the wars, and having fallen into starvation, began to harvest the sea insead of the land, … sailing in squadrons under pirate chiefs who acted like army generals, and fell upon unfortified towns and captured all they could …including holding the wealthier citizens for ransom, and later began organizing themselves into gangs, their chief seat being the crags of Cilicia which they lighted upon as their encampment, and soon Syrians, Cyprians, Pamphylians, and many from the Persian nation, having engaged in the Mithradatic wars for so long soon numbered several tens of thousands…so that the land remained untilled and no sea could be navigated safely: naturally Rome felt this evil most keenly…”

[Even more interestingly, perhaps, Appian a little later in his narrative, also mentions that “a number of Jews were among the Cilician pirates” (of BC 67), and that further, “Pompey used this fact as one of his excuses to invade Palestine” in 63 BC. How many of these Jews he thinks were among the Cilician pirates that practiced Mithraic rites, he does not say, but it might be fun to speculate that some may have been some of Paul’s ancestors, who knows !]

Howbeit, literary evidence such as this from Late Antiquity referring to a period in history (e.g. BC 67) i.e. well before the time of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Jesus") is scarcely “bunk” to be ignored out of hand but rather needs to be treated very seriously in any modern discussion of this subject, forming as it does a salient part of the wider context of discussion ref: the tendenz of Mithraic Mystery ritual influence on at least some external rites connected with many of the early Christianities (including but not limited to all the variants of what became “Pauline Christianity”) practiced in the Roman Empire (especially during their formative period from c. AD 50 to AD 325).

In other words, Roman Mithraism was already beginning too set down roots in the greater Roman Empire before "Jesus" was even thought of, or as Juvenal put it, "Syrian Orantes has been flowing in to the Tiber for some time now..." written around AD 90.

This post is already too long...yet I have not even scratched the surface on what SHOULD be said to answer the many diverse and misleading comments from your last post, so you will have to forgive me if I feel it necessary to prolong this discussion a little and break up some of this into smaller pieces for the readers on this thread who might not otherwise be conversant with all the subtle nuances of the material currently under discussion.