Christians vs. Catholics

a reply to: Crowfoot
Sorry.
I'll butt out.

109 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;

2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.

3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.

4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.

5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.

10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.

11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.

12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.

13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.

15 Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.

16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.

17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.

18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.

19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.

20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the Lord, and of them that speak evil against my soul.

21 But do thou for me, O God the Lord, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is good, deliver thou me.

22 For I am poor and needy, and my heart is wounded within me.

23 I am gone like the shadow when it declineth: I am tossed up and down as the locust.

24 My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.

25 I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.

26 Help me, O Lord my God: O save me according to thy mercy:

27 That they may know that this is thy hand; that thou, Lord, hast done it.

28 Let them curse, but bless thou: when they arise, let them be ashamed; but let thy servant rejoice.

29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.

30 I will greatly praise the Lord with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude.

31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.

a reply to: Crowfoot

Ecclesiastes is the Orthodox Catholic book that Christians wrote for them if they are interested.

I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but this is what Wikipedia says.

The presence of Persian loanwords and numerous Aramaisms points to a date no earlier than about 450 BCE, while the latest possible date according to those claims for its composition is 180 BCE, when the Jewish writer Ben Sira quotes from it. The dispute as to whether Ecclesiastes belongs to the Persian or the Hellenistic periods (i.e., the earlier or later part of this period) revolves around the degree of Hellenization (influence of Greek culture and thought) present in the book. Scholars arguing for a Persian date (c. 450–330 BCE) hold that there is a complete lack of Greek influence; those who argue for a Hellenistic date (c. 330–180 BCE) argue that it shows internal evidence of Greek thought and social setting.

What do you say? No Christians about the place in 180BC, and the Book of Ecclesiastes was already in existence by then since someone quoted from it.

Before being asked I doubt anyone other than a woman would offer a Latin version so please don't ask.

I'm also curious to know what you mean by this.

ETA: Oh, yes, and one more thing. What is an Orthodox Catholic? After the Great Schism of 1054, the Eastern Christian Churches became known as Orthodox and the Western Church called itself Catholic. They were and remain to this day bitter rivals. So what the heck us 'Orthodox Catholic'? Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me!

And people wonder why Church attendance is plummeting in America. This thread is a good indication....It's difficult to be spiritual when religion in general has become a competition and Salvation is just an afterthought.

news.gallup.com...

a reply to: Crowfoot

More generally, the idea of 'Catholic' vs 'Christian' is pretty familiar -- a quaint leftover from European imperialism in the East Indies.

In India and Southeast Asia, the Portuguese first colonized (and proselytized) many countries, only to be succeded after a century or so by the Dutch. The Hollanders banned the Roman Catholicism that the Portuguese had introduced earlier and propagated their own Protestant, highly anti-Catholic version of Christianity, the Calvinist Dutch Reformed Church, in its place. Obviously they couldn't stamp out Catholicism (people stayed Catholic in secret, of course) but they made some converts of their own. Never so many, though, anywhere, as the Catholic Portuguese earlier had (or the Spanish in the Philippines -- oops, almost forgot them).

The British, who succeeded the Dutch, and who were nominally Protestant -- High Church, Low or Nonconformist -- made converts too (the fewest of all except in the Straits Settlements and among the headhunting tribes of Borneo). All these groups had their common quarrel with the Roman Church. So they and the local Catholic communities stayed apart in these countries, even after the Europeans went home.

Ultimately, in these places -- India, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, China, Japan, a few others -- Korea too I think -- there were small communities of both major branches of Western Christianity living surrounded by larger communities of animist, Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim neighbours.

These neighbours saw two different groups of Christ worshippers. Catholics' brand recognition was high but Protestants' was low, because the latter were split up into Dutch Reformists, (allied) Presbyterians and other Calvinists, Anglicans (Episcopalians to Americans), Methodists, Baptists and a bunch of others, including weird cults like the Boxers in China, all fighting each other over doctrine and preferment when they weren't lambasting the Catholics.

All this was a bit too much for the locals, so they just lumped all the Protestants (a word they'd never heard) together as 'Christians'. In any of the countries I mentioned earlier, a Christ worshipper is liable to be asked, 'Are you a Christian or a Catholic?' -- meaning, are you Protestant or Catholic?

It's as simple as that.

I'm guessing, Crowfoot, that you hail, originally, from somewherein in this part of the world. But I don't really want to know. It is of no importance and, I said, this kind of distinction exists in msny places in Asia.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: olaru12

...

However is a person is happy in one denomination and not in another then so be it, as long as it brings them to Christ.

Debate and argument within the denominations help's to keep the faith active and lively as well so in fact it is not all negative but has it's up sides.

...

However, we cannot overlook the obvious differences​—even contradictions—​among the many religious groups who claim to represent Christianity and serve the true God. They differ greatly in their practices, their beliefs, their teachings, and their requirements. The differences are so great that those belonging to one religion or group find it difficult to understand or accept what the others teach or believe.

On the other hand, Jesus said: “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Does worshiping God with truth allow for a range of contradictory ideas about who God is, what his purposes are, and how he wants to be worshiped? Is it logical to believe that it is immaterial to Almighty God how we worship him?

Christians of the first century at times had different opinions about things. For example, speaking of those in Corinth, the apostle Paul said: “Disclosure was made to me about you, my brothers, by those of the house of Chloe, that dissensions exist among you. What I mean is this, that each one of you says: ‘I belong to Paul,’ ‘But I to Apollos,’ ‘But I to Cephas,’ ‘But I to Christ.’”​—1 Corinthians 1:11, 12.

Did Paul view these differences as of little significance? Was each individual simply following his own path to salvation? Far from it! Paul admonished: “I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”​—1 Corinthians 1:10.

Of course, unity of belief cannot be achieved by coercion. It is achieved only when individuals carefully investigate matters and arrive at and accept the same conclusions. Thus, a personal study of God’s Word and an honest desire to apply what is learned are essential steps to enjoy the kind of unity that Paul spoke of.

I think I can offer some insight, as I am a Protestant, who has been going to a Catholic parish for several years. This is done as my wife asked for our kids to be raised Catholic. I had zero issue with that.

I was a Christian before, and still am. My wife is a Christian as well. We have both accepted Christ as our savior. We have many differences (communion, views on saints and Mary, etc.) in our worship, but I believe it is a different path to get to the same ending.

Catholic worship is very procedural. Same chant, song, service prompts in the same order. Our service was much less procedural. Our church was a Pastor teaching about God. He prayed and taught what he was told/shown to preach. He didn't read from the same prayer book as a priest up the street. I prefer the more personal approach. The Catholic church is ran like a massive organization, my church was like a main street small business. Gray or grey?

She holds Mary above other people, just under God/Jesus. I see her as another person, not of the divine (I would never recite a prayer -Hail Mary- towards someone other than Jesus/God). Same thing with a hierarchy going to a pope. We had a small council on handling finances, but that was it. Gray or grey?

Her cross has the depiction of Jesus on it, mine is empty. She said it signifies him dying, while mine shows he rose from the dead. Gray or grey?

Which one is right....Gray or grey? All based on your perspective. They are both based on the bible, and profess Christ as the messiah. It is preferential on how you like to worship.

I think that these types of arguments should be reserved for churches that aren't Christian.... Those that allow blasphemy/sin to be accepted.

When you're discussing christians vs. catholics the point is you are discussing humans, wrong and right.