ATS: Chavez Accuses U.S. Of Murder Plot

Muaddib,

I don't think you know what you're talking about, nor do you have the ability to stay on topic. You've time after time touted irrelevent data to degrade the Image of Hugo Chavez into some dictator, though knowing very well the man was elected democraticly into office 4 times -- speaks volumes for itself.

Tell me, if you were president of his country and were facing a major economic crisis that has crippled your country, how would you cope? Answer me this question before you go and chide the man who has obviously decided to put more government intervention in the economy to propogate it.

May I also add that I never made ad hominem remarks against any members on this thread, nor is it in my countenance to do as such.

Chavez himself has stated frequently the following.

quote: “I am convinced that the path to a new, better and possible world is not capitalism, the path is socialism”. With this clear statement on his weekly TV programme “Alo Presidente,” Chavez reaffirmed his point of view that socialism is the only way forward to solve the problems of inequality, misery and poverty that millions face in Venezuela and the world today.

What's your point? If the man oposses capitalism, does this make him any less valid in office? What of countries like Sweden and Norway? They, too, are more Socialist and it's soveirgn controls the resources, let us chide them and call there goverment a dictatorship.

Socialism emphasis the collective imperative, and not the individual as is the case in pure capitalism; and as is evident, many of the worlds Socialist countries are also some of the highest ranking countries to reside in. Hugo Chavez wants what's best for the en masse of his country, and not just a few rich oligarchs. As is the case in America during the Reagan era, where goverment deregulation occured as did regression from intervention in the economy, coupled with tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy -- becuase they would "somehow" reinvest in the economy and create more jobs for the poor -- the gap from the rich and the poor, got even bigger. Money was cut from social reform programs and spending on the military rose to 13 percent, even school lunches for dropped. But of course, in such a case, the wealth would trickle down from the wealty to the poor..as Mr.Bush also seems to believe.

According to the Marxist doctrine, socialism is but a stage in which capitalist countries go through before becoming communist countries.

I'm not sure what your trying to state here. According to Karl Marxs stage of evolution towards a communist utopia, societies would go through 4 stages, as follows:

1 - Primitive communism: Means of production and power are shared.

2 - Slavery: Some individuals acquire control of the means of production. Others exist in a state of absolute drudgery.

3 - Feudalism: Large landowners need many labourers -- serfs have somewhat more freedom than slaves.

4 - Capitalism: Introduced when the means of production shifted to factories.

5 - Pure Communism: The means of production are restored to workers. When perfected, there would be no need for a state apparatus -- it would wither away.

As is stated in my Political philosophy text book; though, one would rather use something more lay and easier to comprehend:

Communism is spured by the faults of capitalism - during the times of Marx, these were as follows, Poverty, Child labour, and exploitation; sadly, they still occur to this day- subsequently, a violent revolution would occure, as according to Marx, change could not occure through passing laws in a more liberal manner as the goverment of the time was majority conservative not willing to change status qou. The next phase is where the current communist countries reside; social dictatorship of the proleteriat. This would be a temporary stage that made sure the old system was destroyed and would one the nature of man to reprogram a more collective countenance, than an individual. The last would simply be were the state would step downand pure communism would take over.

In no way, does current Socialism occure in any of these stages; the goverment control of resources and emphasis of the general, collective will through the equal redistribution of wealth, is not the communism we saw in Stalins day, nor in Maos dream, nor in North Korea.

There is not democratic process in communism, so how you bridged a gap between the political system of Hugo Chavez, to the that of communism is beyond me.

The evidence is there... it is not that i only think this is happening, the evidence itself backs up what I am saying, and what a large mayority of Venezuelans see as the marxist propaganda that Chavez is trying to push.

Once again, there is no Marxist propaganda. The only ones who have qualms with Mr.Chavez are the upper middle class who believe he is imposing a Cuban style system of communism, and as you seem to believe, this is somehow bad --not to say it's not, however, you've never given us a substantial reason to believe so other than your own dogma.

.... they don't only send doctors to countries which have terrorists who want to oust democratic governments, and are part of the "Revolucion".... They both actively send other forms of aids, including money and manpower.

You forget the many times your own country has ebetted terrorists and dictatorships; Iraq, Indonesia, selling arms to North Korea, etc etc etc.

Ah, but according to some in here, when the evidence comes from true democratic countries, is all a lie and propaganda done by the US government...riiight.

What exactly constitutes a true democratic country? You mean the democracy lauded in Ancient Athens where Women had no civil or economic rights, and slaves had no rights at all? Where the rule was by the wealth elite?

In Venezuela that is not happening.... on the contrary, a large part of the population, which has demonstrated to be at least as many or more than those who back up Chavez want him ousted

A 'large' portion of the population? Hardly...

www.sfgate.com.../news/archive/2004/06/28/international2250EDT0848.DTL

Supporters insist Chavez has done more than any previous president to bring social justice to Venezuela's poor majority, including initiatives to bring Cuban doctors and teachers to work for the disenfranchised.

Critics have accused the Cuban doctors and teachers of trying to indoctrinate the poor with communist ideology. But some opposition leaders have backed the allegations as recent polls show a majority of Venezuelans support the programs.

www.venezuelaninformation.com...

Referring to Chavez's election in 1998, reelection in 2000 and Sunday's voting, Alvarez said, "The Venezuelan people have affirmed, for the third time in six years, that they support President Hugo Chavez and his reform agenda."

www.freerepublic.com...

More than 20,000 people turned out this week calling for the resignation of President Hugo Chávez, while some 2,000 supporters marched in a rival demonstration of support. The demonstrations come after months of building discontent with a president who has managed to alienate the labor class, the media, business groups, the church, political parties, and the military.

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Muaddib,

I don't think you know what you're talking about, nor do you have the ability to stay on topic.

Says who...you? Anwser this, are you one of those who thinks that the present historical time demands for a modern theory of communism to replace the former failed socialist ideology?...... in other words, a return to the ideology of Marx and Engels?.... BTW, i am asking this because you seem to be convinced in a need to defend the ideas of Marx.


Anyways, you are saying that presenting evidence as to the lies that Chavez has been telling from the beginning has nothing to do with whether or not Chavez's accusation that "the US wants to kill him" is more probably an exageration and just a tool of propaganda he is using against the US?..... and, according to you, i can't respond to what other members are saying by presenting evidence that proves they are wrong?....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
You've time after time touted irrelevent data to degrade the Image of Hugo Chavez into some dictator, though knowing very well the man was elected democraticly into office 4 times -- speaks volumes for itself.

Yeah, and at least 2 million+ Venezuelans also agree with me. Two million Venezuelans are not the whole country, but there were 3.7 million signatures collected from Venezuelans who also want Chavez ousted, and the amount of Venezuelans who voted for Chavez totalled 3.7 million people...

Results of the election for president:
Presidential Candidate: Hugo CHAVEZ
Party: Movement for the Fifth Republic (MVR)
Votes Cast: 3,757,773
Percentage of Votes Cast: 56.93%

Excerpted from.
www.cnn.com...

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Tell me, if you were president of his country and were facing a major economic crisis that has crippled your country, how would you cope? Answer me this question before you go and chide the man who has obviously decided to put more government intervention in the economy to propogate it.

Well, i don't know everything there is to know to run a country, and neither do you...but I would certainly don't use the teachings of another dictator as "a moral image that Venezuela must follow"....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
May I also add that I never made ad hominem remarks against any members on this thread, nor is it in my countenance to do as such.

Really?....then why attack the evidence that i am presenting when I am clearly responding to what other members are talking about in this same thread.... Why haven't you said anything to them, but you chose to accuse me and not them?.... Could it be because you agree with them?.....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
What's your point? If the man oposses capitalism, does this make him any less valid in office? What of countries like Sweden and Norway? They, too, are more Socialist and it's soveirgn controls the resources, let us chide them and call there goverment a dictatorship.

Except that Chavez is not giving as an example places like Sweden and Norway Zero...he gives as an example that Venezuelans must follow fidel castro's moral ideas.....

My point clearly shows that time and again, Chavez is following the footsteps of his mentor, fidel castro.

BTW, Sweden is a Constitutional Monarchy and so is Norway....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Socialism emphasis the collective imperative, and not the individual as is the case in pure capitalism; and as is evident, many of the worlds Socialist countries are also some of the highest ranking countries to reside in.

Are they truly Socialist countries? or are they a mix between Socialism and Capitalism?.... So, what do you think would happen if those high ranking countries abolish Capitalism like Chavez wants to do to Venezuela?....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Hugo Chavez wants what's best for the en masse of his country, and not just a few rich oligarchs.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
As is the case in America during the Reagan era, where goverment deregulation occured as did regression from intervention in the economy, coupled with tax cuts to corporations and the wealthy --
.........

Humm...i think i remember someone complaining about others not staying on topic....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

According to the Marxist doctrine, socialism is but a stage in which capitalist countries go through before becoming communist countries.

I'm not sure what your trying to state here.

Humm, i clearly gave a link to an encyclopedia which states that according to the ideology of Marx, socialism is but a stage towards communism... what is there not to understand about that?....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
According to Karl Marxs stage of evolution towards a communist utopia, societies would go through 4 stages, as follows:
............

Now you are trying to sugarcoat the goal of socialism according to Marxism.

Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were the founders of modern socialism and communism. Together they authored the Communist Manifesto, published in 1848, and collaborated on Marx's famous work Das Kapital, in which he analyzed economic and social history. Marx and Engels' ideas came to be known as 'Marxism', which greatly influenced the development of socialist ideas.

Karl Marx was born on May 5, 1818 in the city of Trier, Germany. Marx was a revolutionary who advocated 'merciless criticism of everything existing'. In 1843, Marx went to Paris in order to publish a journal of his radical ideas. He was a critic of capitalism, and an advocate of socialism. The following year he met Frederick Engels, who was to become a friend and collaborator. Marx and Engels were both active in various revolutionary groups, and together worked out the theory and tactics of 'Revolutionary Proletarian Socialism', which they called 'Communism'.
.........
Marx believed that state control of production (socialism) was a necessary first step. Workers would need re-education under socialism to move them away from selfish capitalist ideas, and this might take many years of state control. But eventually a country could move to true communism, where the 'state' would disappear.

Excerpted from.
www.worsleyschool.net...

Socialism, is but a stage towards communism according to the Communist[ Manifesto of Marx and Engels.... keep trying to sugarcoat it....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
There is not democratic process in communism, so how you bridged a gap between the political system of Hugo Chavez, to the that of communism is beyond me.

You are right, when a country has finally reached the final stage "Communism" there is no demcratic process.... Venezuela, through Chavez, is going through the process of becoming communist, but first it has to become a socialist state according to the doctrine of Marx....which is what is happening....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Once again, there is no Marxist propaganda. The only ones who have qualms with Mr.Chavez are the upper middle class who believe he is imposing a Cuban style system of communism, and as you seem to believe, this is somehow bad --not to say it's not, however, you've never given us a substantial reason to believe so other than your own dogma.

My own dogma?....not really, unless you are now saying that Chavez's own quotes and speeches are "my own dogma".....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
You forget the many times your own country has ebetted terrorists and dictatorships; Iraq, Indonesia, selling arms to North Korea, etc etc etc.

Humm, who is changing the topic again?.......

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
What exactly constitutes a true democratic country? You mean the democracy lauded in Ancient Athens where Women had no civil or economic rights, and slaves had no rights at all? Where the rule was by the wealth elite?

Since when did the discussion turn into a discussion of the political system of Ancient Athens?......

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
A 'large' portion of the population? Hardly...

www.sfgate.com.../news/archive/2004/06/28/international2250EDT0848.DTL


Supporters insist Chavez has done more than any previous president to bring social justice to Venezuela's poor majority, including initiatives to bring Cuban doctors and teachers to work for the disenfranchised.

Critics have accused the Cuban doctors and teachers of trying to indoctrinate the poor with communist ideology. But some opposition leaders have backed the allegations as recent polls show a majority of Venezuelans support the programs.




www.venezuelaninformation.com...

So, you are giving a link which does not show any data except what supposedly the mayority of people in Venezuela say?... A link which shows a bias towards Chavez...

I wonder what happened to the poor Venezuelan woman which we saw in the video i gave sometime ago, and in which she was taken away from the reporter and into a government building by Venezuelan government agents because she stated that at first she was in favor of Chavez, but then realized what he was doing and now was not going to vote for him again....

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

More than 20,000 people turned out this week calling for the resignation of President Hugo Chávez, while some 2,000 supporters marched in a rival demonstration of support. The demonstrations come after months of building discontent with a president who has managed to alienate the labor class, the media, business groups, the church, political parties, and the military.

Deep

Now i am really perplexed....

Do tell me.... first of all, what do you think a link which shows that 10 times more protesters appeared in one of the demonstration than people who support Chavez proves?....

You really think that presenting a link in which it clearly states that there were 20,000 people protesting against Chavez, and 2,000 people were in favor of Chavez proves your point?.....

Second.... you obviously prefer to ignore the links which i gave which clearly state that up to 2 million Venezuelans took to the streets to protest against Chavez...

---edited for errors and to add comments---



[edit on 6-3-2005 by Muaddib]


[edit on 6-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Disregard my belated response, for I was never aware this thread still existed, nonetheless, I'll afford you a substantiated response.

Says who...you? Anwser this, are you one of those who thinks that the present historical time demands for a modern theory of communism to replace the former failed socialist ideology?...... in other words, a return to the ideology of Marx and Engels?.... BTW, i am asking this because you seem to be convinced in a need to defend the ideas of Marx.

I don't believe in Communism, nor am I defending this sureal dream of Marx; I simply realized that you did not understand Communism in it's total entirety and attacked it ignorantly.

I would also like to ask you how Socialism is a failed ideology? It sure seems to be rampant in Europe and Canada, and we are obviously seeing it shedding light in the eyes of Chavez. And, please, don't make ignorant remarks against the Europeans, I want a productive diatribe discerning the flaws of socialism.

Anyways, you are saying that presenting evidence as to the lies that Chavez has been telling from the beginning has nothing to do with whether or not Chavez's accusation that "the US wants to kill him" is more probably an exageration and just a tool of propaganda he is using against the US?..... and, according to you, i can't respond to what other members are saying by presenting evidence that proves they are wrong?....

What other lies? You presented "facts" in regards to his countries socio-political atmosphere. You simply can't understand that this man was voted in 4 times. You gave misguided bias to some of his statements in a yearning effort to decry his image, never once did you gave us determined evidence that he was deliterious to Venezuala. The following is a good example of this:

“I am convinced that the path to a new, better and possible world is not capitalism, the path is socialism”. With this clear statement on his weekly TV programme “Alo Presidente,” Chavez reaffirmed his point of view that socialism is the only way forward to solve the problems of inequality, misery and poverty that millions face in Venezuela and the world today.

Tell me, what exactly was the point of the above? Did you discourse as to how socialism would not be effective in combating inequality, misery and poverty? No, you never. Did you discourse as to how capitalism would be effective? No, you never.

Yeah, and at least 2 million+ Venezuelans also agree with me. Two million Venezuelans are not the whole country, but there were 3.7 million signatures collected from Venezuelans who also want Chavez ousted, and the amount of Venezuelans who voted for Chavez totalled 3.7 million people.

He is a democraticly elected leader, period. This is a democratic country that voted him in. 2 million Venezualans does not set aside this fact; 2 million Venezualans also voted for this man, Francisco Arias Cardenas, a man whom attempted Coup d'Etat against President Carlos Andres Perez, or did you not notice this?

Well, i don't know everything there is to know to run a country, and neither do you...but I would certainly don't use the teachings of another dictator as "a moral image that Venezuela must follow"....

You have no basis to tell me that I don't understand econonics or political philosophy. I'm fully capable of making rational and logical assertions if I were in office. Fidel Castro may seem like a moraly atrophic image to you, but America itself, has commited attrocoties across the world in the name of democracy for centuries.

Really?....then why attack the evidence that i am presenting when I am clearly responding to what other members are talking about in this same thread.... Why haven't you said anything to them, but you chose to accuse me and not them?.... Could it be because you agree with them?.....

No, I don't agree with them in certain regards, however, you went out of your way to bring in non-sensical babble that had nothing to do with the topic. Not only did you propogate ad hominem against other members, but against Hugo Chavez himself. You've yet to describe the fallacies of Socialism.

BTW, Sweden is a Constitutional Monarchy and so is Norway....

They are mixed enocomies; both follow capitalism and socialism. The King may be head of state, however, he has no executive power; he simply a figure head.

Humm...i think i remember someone complaining about others not staying on topic....

No, not really. I'm telling you how in circumstance as described by Chavez, little or no intervention in the economy and highly capitalistic ideals did more harm than good. You need to read more carefully.

Socialism, is but a stage towards communism according to the Communist[ Manifesto of Marx and Engels.... keep trying to sugarcoat it....

I'm not sugercoating anything. Proletariat dictatorship was the step before the state would wither away and a soveriegn would be non-existent. Neo-Socialism is much different than it's paleo counterpart. You need to discern between the two.

You are right, when a country has finally reached the final stage "Communism" there is no demcratic process.... Venezuela, through Chavez, is going through the process of becoming communist, but first it has to become a socialist state according to the doctrine of Marx....which is what is happening....

No it's not. Venezual is intervening in the economy of it's country to further ebette it's assention so it can help it's people. In pure communism, there is no government period; it's tatamount to anarcho-capitalism. Cuban communism is not Marxism, nor is any country on this planet. Tell me, who would let go the reigns of power?

I only ignored your non-sensical links that had nothing to do with the topic at hand: Chavez accuses America of murder plot.

Deep