European Support for Iran should come at a price

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: JoeGee

You pulled the trigger as Japan was already in the edge of surrendering.
But that's not the point, you want to punish Europe for complying with the treaty the US made. And think that is right somehow. It's not just bad reputation, it's your actions.

No , no they were not .
You are not a history buff ,are you ?
When the Great Appeaser Obama apologized for the use of the atomic bombs , he was brought down notches by the Emperor of Japan
Stating - "Do not apologize , the people of Japan understands why"

Go learn some history

Denying ignorance
Why ?
Ignorance needs to be stamped out.

a reply to: 4891morfih

Maybe the U.S. should just walk away....F the rest of the world.

Best idea I’ve heard in ages! Doubt Israel would be happy though...

The last paragraph is really good, I think we should pull back all of our forces and nukes from Europe. Europe does not respect us anymore, so why do we spend so much over there blocking them from Russia. Maybe they will start to get more sensible if we pull everything out. The US spends a lot on military, why....because we have bases all over the world protecting other countries and some of those countries do not give us respect anymore, they take us for granted. They want our money spent there so they can live a good life. Meanwhile most of our budget goes to military spending to protect those who do not appreciate us.

We should keep a strong military but concentrate it to actually protect us and our close allies that actually respect us and work with us.

Europe is still giving Iran money even though Iran is starting to enrich Uranium again, they should cut off Iran immediately since Iran is breaking their agreement. A nuclear Iran is bad for everyone.

originally posted by: JoeGee

Even more of a reason why they shouldn't have nuclear technology. Period.

Well, yeah. If the plan is to invade Iran eventually and take over their resources no matter what, then the US wouldn't want them to have nuclear power plants. But if there is a chance that we could resolve our differences without invading and killing a million Iranians, nuclear power plants in Iran wouldn't matter to us.

originally posted by: JoeGee

tbh, I think infrastructure is a sinkhole of tax-payer dollars. It's funny, I'm a local 1 plumber and I helped build the Hudson River Yards, and that job has over a $5 billion dollar price-tag on tax payer dollars. Weapons and oil though? Now that's something we can see some profits from. But let me stop myself short, because I don't want to see ourselves in kinetic conflict with Iran.

Weapons and oil represent short term profits. Spending money on infrastructure is a long term investment that pays dividends for many decades. The US would not be the powerhouse it is if we didn't invest in railroads, dams, shipping terminals, the interstate system, etc. Those investments are still paying off.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit to see the US military focus on just protecting our borders, coastline, and airspace. We could close down all of those overseas bases and build solar plants in the southwest, offshore wind farms, colleges and hospitals that are free to American citizens, and maybe even a high speed interstate rail system.

Maybe when all the religious fanatics around the world see how successful we can be without war they will stop trying to be God's favorite people and remember the Ten Commandments. Particularly, Thou Shall Not Kill.

a reply to: JoeGee

couldn't I just say the same? Does Europe fall in line with Iran or with the United States?

The least you could do is be honest. Its not about security or the fear of Iran - but keeping the status quo of American hegemony.

a reply to: JoeGee

That's very patronizing of yourself to say that as you sit there high on your perch. In your comfortable home, perhaps in airconditioning, perhaps you're watching netflix on that nice flat screen tv you may have recently bought, or that nice car sitting in your driveway. you seem to enjoy and loath in the freedoms and benefits this free and capitalist country provides

It is for those very reasons that I loathe what system you live under. How many lives are enough so you get to control the world through the Petrodollar. How much death and destruction is sufficient before you say enough is enough. But the death of the other means nothing to you while you blatantly overlook how all these puppets in South America or the Middle East were put there by the west to ensure wealth flows freely to a select few.

We use words like "honor," "code," "loyalty." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line.

There is no honor in repeating lies to the gullible so you get to live a charmed life at the misery of the "other".

Or is it about "freedom" hahahahaha.

Who's doing the patronizing here?

How many more wars or needless deaths?

a reply to: rickymouse

The US spends a lot on military, why....because we have bases all over the world protecting other countries and some of those countries do not give us respect anymore,

Those US bases also represent staging point for further incursions by the US into "other countries". Do you really think they are solely there for the defense of Europe?

Give me a break. Berlin, China, Russia were opened up to capitalism when the time was right, and McDonalds and KFC were ready to go in. These heads up deals were down before any walls came down.

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: JoeGee

You pulled the trigger as Japan was already in the edge of surrendering.
But that's not the point, you want to punish Europe for complying with the treaty the US made. And think that is right somehow. It's not just bad reputation, it's your actions.

No , no they were not .
You are not a history buff ,are you ?
When the Great Appeaser Obama apologized for the use of the atomic bombs , he was brought down notches by the Emperor of Japan
Stating - "Do not apologize , the people of Japan understands why"

Go learn some history

Denying ignorance
Why ?
Ignorance needs to be stamped out.

Yes. Yes they were, actually, and looking to solicit Soviet support in dealing with the Americans. They were not initially willing to accept UNCONDITIONAL surrender and the strict terms insisted upon by the Americans. They were seeking diplomatic channels to address their exit from the war which they knew had become a losing proposition.

Learn some history indeed.

originally posted by: Praetorius

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: JoeGee

You pulled the trigger as Japan was already in the edge of surrendering.
But that's not the point, you want to punish Europe for complying with the treaty the US made. And think that is right somehow. It's not just bad reputation, it's your actions.

No , no they were not .
You are not a history buff ,are you ?
When the Great Appeaser Obama apologized for the use of the atomic bombs , he was brought down notches by the Emperor of Japan
Stating - "Do not apologize , the people of Japan understands why"

Go learn some history

Denying ignorance
Why ?
Ignorance needs to be stamped out.

Yes. Yes they were, actually, and looking to solicit Soviet support in dealing with the Americans. They were not initially willing to accept UNCONDITIONAL surrender and the strict terms insisted upon by the Americans. They were seeking diplomatic channels to address their exit from the war which they knew had become a losing proposition.

Learn some history indeed.

Citation required , or I feel you are just repeating your neighbor's history lesson
Or , did you get this from a YouTube video ?

a reply to: Gothmog

What is wrong with you? Because the emperor of Japan was polite it's all justified? And for what? To defend China? Are you insane?

And obviously I know at least that it's a topic for disagreement amongst historians, you just swallowed your favourite version and talk about ignorance...

To me it was unneccessary period. You destroyed two cities with civillians and an aftermath that still lingers today. The victims we're used as lab rats.
Even Arnold said Japan was virtually defeated before the bombs.

a reply to: Gothmog

As an implied history buff who for some reason also does not offer citations for claims then denigrated someone of different view with instead just educating and correcting them with documentation, I shouldn’t be doing the legwork for you, but regardless these will be a very small start. Plenty more if you want to actually look into it, historical quibbling on some points aside:
^ Frank, 97, quoting The Diary of Marquis Kido, 1931–45: Selected Translations into English, p 435–436.
^ Frank, 97–99.
^ a b Frank, 100, quoting Terasaki, 136–37.
^ Frank, 102.
^ Frank, 94.
^ Frank, 221, citing Magic Diplomatic Summary No. 1201.
^ Frank, 222–3, citing Magic Diplomatic Summary No. 1205, 2 (PDF).
^ Frank, 226, citing Magic Diplomatic Summary No. 1208, 10–12.
^ Frank, 227, citing Magic Diplomatic Summary No. 1209.
^ Frank, 229, citing Magic Diplomatic Summary No. 1212.
^ Frank, 230, citing Magic Diplomatic Summary No. 1214, 2–3 (PDF).
^ "Some messages were deciphered and translated the same day and most within a week; a few in cases of key change took longer"—The Oxford Guide to World War II, ed. I.C.B. Dear. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2007. ISBN 978-0-19-534096-9 S.v. "MAGIC".
^ Hasegawa, 60.
^ Hasegawa, 19.
^ Hasegawa, 25.
^ Hasegawa, 32.
^ a b Hasegawa, 86.
^ Hasegawa, 115–116.

I’ll gladly consider and review whatever sources you wish to provide indicating Japan’s UNWILLINGNESS to surrender or lack of desire to end the war without further conflict, but everything I’ve historically seen on this has been in regards to the demanded terms of surrender (as japan realized they were effectively done as now in a pincer between the U.S. and Soviets, with their capacity to present any optimistic ongoing battle viability severely diminished), coupled with the rise of the US’ desire to also put on a very effective demonstration to nip post-war Soviet aspirations in the bud.

Be well. And hopefully more constructive and less dismissive of others in posting.

Edit: granted, in pretty much any conflict there will of course be some hawks who oppose certain avenues to a peaceful resolution, but being the Empire, Hirohito’s willingness to consider surrender and seek a diplomatic resolution trumps such here

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Gothmog

What is wrong with you? Because the emperor of Japan was polite it's all justified? And for what? To defend China? Are you insane?

And obviously I know at least that it's a topic for disagreement amongst historians, you just swallowed your favourite version and talk about ignorance...

To me it was unneccessary period. You destroyed two cities with civillians and an aftermath that still lingers today. The victims we're used as lab rats.
Even Arnold said Japan was virtually defeated before the bombs.

You cannot find anything to back your post up , can you ?
I didnt think so.
Just making up stuff as you go.....
As normal.

a reply to: Praetorius

What ?
I didn't even quote that mess.
Waste of ATS space on servers.

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Gothmog

What is wrong with you? Because the emperor of Japan was polite it's all justified? And for what? To defend China? Are you insane?

And obviously I know at least that it's a topic for disagreement amongst historians, you just swallowed your favourite version and talk about ignorance...

To me it was unneccessary period. You destroyed two cities with civillians and an aftermath that still lingers today. The victims we're used as lab rats.
Even Arnold said Japan was virtually defeated before the bombs.

You cannot find anything to back your post up , can you ?
I didnt think so.
Just making up stuff as you go.....
As normal.

Considering you aren't bothering to back your own crap up with sources either, you're not one to smirk at all. Praetorius above your post, however, put HIS money where his mouth is. Put up, or clam it. Easy as that.