Circumventing Anothers Free Will

a reply to: March of the Fire Ants

Thank you -- that helps! So maybe we can liken the situation to a smoker who knows their habit affects others, knows the health implications for herself and others, and perhaps she has helped others to cut down on smoking or substitute vaping, etc., but still insists on the "right" to smoke when and where she wants without regards to others?

If she is rational and mentally competent, then I would suggest the appropriate course of action is to let her do as she will -- but only where and when it does not affect others without their consent, such as at home or a designated smoking area which others are likewise free to avoid. But in such a case, I would not recommend violating her free will; rather make it clear that she can only exercise her free will in such ways that do not violate the free will of others.

If she is not rational and mentally competent, then we're treading different waters altogether. In that case, should we be sneaking her Chantix to force her to quit smoking? Or just hiding her cigarettes? Or??? In that case, I suppose one would have to weigh the negative consequences of each. Is it more harmful to treat her without her knowledge and consent than to let her continue in her present condition? Is it possible to put a big fat "Q" for quarantine outside to warn others?

Hmmmm... What about a food addict? If Gramma weighs 600 pounds and cannot even function on her own, but depends on me to provide her food, is it okay to sneak speed into her food to decrease her appetite and stimulate weight loss? I don't think I could do that. I'd probably be more inclined to buy low calorie/low glycemic foods for her I think, because at that point it is my conscience at stake as well. I could not in good conscience contribute to her dis-ease. So I guess I would be honest about that with her and simply say, "I'm happy to get you food since you are no longer in a position to provide for yourself, but it will be my choice of what food I provide to you." She can accept or reject my offer.

And does our relationship have any bearing? Is it okay for me as a granddaughter/family member to do it because of course I have her best interests at heart... but not the faceless bureaucratic machine?

I'm just kind of thinking out loud here...

I tend to think truth and transparency are the best course of action, but I can see exceptions.

a reply to: fractal5

Haha, no. That's the best I can come up with, feel free to come up with your own if you feel so inclined. Unrealistic as it may seem, this is as close to my real dilemma as I can get. (exploding heads etc, I'm sure you understand)

a reply to: Boadicea

Like the smoking analogy although can you do any of this without acknowledging smoking as the problem? Remember exploding heads is worse than smoking! As to how rational and mentally competent she is.. it varies, swings wildly from one day/moment to the next. Ironically, smoking makes her more rational and competent in the short term! haha! So some sort of leper colony with day release kind of thing, could work but you have to get her there and compliant without mentioning smoking..

Hmm stealth medication seems pretty evil but again, if it works she might thank you later on.. With this one you have found yourself in a position of power over her.. Proceed with caution! I think on the surface your 'I buy I choose' thing is good, but who is paying? And what if she hates your choices and begins to resent you for making them in her stead. If it's her money then you're treading on very thin ice!

The relationship can vary, probably lots of people are trying to help. The assumption that family members have their relatives best interests at heart is really lovely and most likely true, but is definitely not always the case, see Euthenasia!
Just to add a spanner in the works, lets say that if she is drunk, so drunk she will have no memory of the conversation, almost like she was another version of her self, then and only then can you discuss things and gain consent. Is that consent valid, consent she has no knowledge of giving?

a reply to: March of the Fire Ants

Oh Certainly we could live without money, it's just not very well or easily in America, if you don't sign up for help and you have kids and water or shelter goes, you lose them, so money is needed to keep my kids and in my opinion, live.

But without kids, it's certainly doable, just not fun.

And it's the very fact that lack of money in many issues negates freewill, especially when surplus of money can buy power which in turn further negates other's freewill through both money and power situations.

It's been at the fabric of society for a while and stinks, almost like it's always been rigged.

Easy, just market it as something else.

I have this secret medicine that makes you super smart, I'm not supposed to tell anyone about it though but because I like you so much I'm willing to let you try it.