The Genius of Christianity

C. S. Lewis once remarked that the Pagan Heaven was a vision of the Christian Hell. Whatever did he mean?

In the Gnostic (and Eastern) world view, life is a trap from which one's psyche longs for rescue. Material, individual existence is an illusion from which the initiate seeks release.

But release to what?

The heaven of pagans was in many ways indistinguishable from the "Nirvana" of Eastern thosophies. It is a realm of perfect nothingness where the individual is subsumed within a great collective void. Unity with the divine is indistinguishable from annihilation.

How does modern Christian theology differ?

Christianity argues that the resurrection takes place "in the flesh" and, in so doing, redeems the flesh. Christianity's message is that life, here and now, in this fleshy body, is GOOD. It is NOT something from which we long for escape. Our existence as individuals, with all our individual characteristics and traits, is the highest form of existence the soul can achieve. The world is not an illusion but is indeed heaven.

Hell, by contrast, if it is not a place of eternal torment, is certainly a place where the individual faces annihilation: where souls are extinguished or void of the presence of G-d; ie: 'the lake of fire' at the end of time.

Gnosticism/Paganism celebrates the resurrection. Christianity celebrates the incarnation. The incarnation of G-d *in the flesh* is not a corruption, but indeed a creation. It is not to be rejected, but embraced and celebrated.

Any thoughts or discussion?

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
C. S. Lewis once remarked that the Pagan Heaven was a vision of the Christian Hell. Whatever did he mean?


Any thoughts or discussion?

regards
seekerof

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

well let's see

pagan heavan was a place where immortals resided, and for their amusement during times of boredom they screwed around with us mere mortals causing us much anxiety.

anoter conspiracy

tut tut

christian hell is a place where one diety screws with everybody for fun

Originally posted by Seekerof

But release to what?

regards
seekerof

------------------------------------------------------------------------

well let's see

release to other realities that are here but we cannot participate in because our collective unconsciousness has blocked them to support a world view our primitive senses can deal with
if the doors of perception were to open to all the vast majority would loose it, their minds that is

tut

Originally posted by Seekerof

How does modern Christian theology differ?

Christianity argues that the resurrection takes place "in the flesh" and, in so doing, redeems the flesh. Christianity's message is that life, here and now, in this fleshy body, is GOOD. It is NOT something from which we long for escape. Our existence as individuals, with all our individual characteristics and traits, is the highest form of existence the soul can achieve. The world is not an illusion but is indeed heaven.

Hell, by contrast, if it is not a place of eternal torment, is certainly a place where the individual faces annihilation: where souls are extinguished or void of the presence of G-d; ie: 'the lake of fire' at the end of time.

Gnosticism/Paganism celebrates the resurrection. Christianity celebrates the incarnation. The incarnation of G-d *in the flesh* is not a corruption, but indeed a creation. It is not to be rejected, but embraced and celebrated.

Any thoughts or discussion?

regards
seekerof

-------------------------------------------------------------------

the above is gobbledegook

Originally posted by tututkamen
pagan heavan was a place where immortals resided, and for their amusement during times of boredom they screwed around with us mere mortals causing us much anxiety.

I thought that was what the Greek gods did?


Phimes

Seekerof.......
Gnosticism/Paganism celebrates the resurrection. Christianity celebrates the incarnation. The incarnation of G-d *in the flesh* is not a corruption, but indeed a creation. It is not to be rejected, but embraced and celebrated. unquote//

Yes celebrated because God took flesh and became man ......Jesus Christ gave life for eternity and destroyed death through His pain andsuffering on earth.....the Crucifiction .....Him spilling His blood for all mankind..
Without the Resurrection of Jesus Christ we have nothing .......we still have bodily death that occured in the original sin.....'''For in that day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen 2:16-17)not because the fruit was bad, but because of the temptation of one simple task .....Eve was tempted into tasting that fruit..she saw it pleasing to the eye and wanted the knowledge that it gave......that is why today many seek the knowledge of Good And Evil.....the practice of seeking higher power knowledge that was forbidden by God.......it was a trick odf the devil to make man beleive that one can be God ......The devil failed in his attempt to be God .....and so he fell on lower heaven(earth) with his demons and seek to destroy all of God's creation......but God saw all of this and took flesh and became man .......to detroy 'death' bodily death.....
Heaven is not here on Earth......
Heaven is where God and His Saints live....there is no sin in Heaven...there is no pain ,no hatred .....earth is like a big testing ground for mankind....and when we live according to God's will on earth,and keep His commandments, we foretaste the heaven in our souls....for we are made in the image of God.....and our soul seeks God......although our bodies(flesh) seeks only worldly things..eg.......to get ahead,money,pleasure,.......our soul will never be satisfied without the knowledge of God.....
The body of Jesus Christ is the Church.......He is the head of the church....
Jesus Christ commanded His Apostles to do this in remembrance of Him.....at the breaking of the 'bread and wine'' .......''do this in remembrance of Me''
We get to foretaste the heavenly realm through the sacrements of the Church.......for it was instituted by God Himself.....it is a mystery to how this happens...

Without the Resurrection of Jesus Christ,Christianity has nothing!
That is why is has been tried to be Dis-proven....while still alive ,Jesus Christ said''' After three days I will rise again'' so then Pilate said to get all the soldiers to secure the tomb,and they did ...they placed a guard there and a big stone....
The stone was still in place and the seal that was placed by the Sanhedrin was unbroken.
Christianity celebrate the Resurrection because it is the sign that death will be no more ......Death is only a bodily death......
When Jesus Christ was seen He was the same....only His body was transformed.
That is why Pascha(Easter) is celebrated each year.....for remebrance of the life to come.....like a birthday party is celebrated after one is born......in remembrance of one living.

Sorry ,is that what thoughts and discussion you wanted?

helen....

Originally posted by Phimes

Originally posted by tututkamen
pagan heavan was a place where immortals resided, and for their amusement during times of boredom they screwed around with us mere mortals causing us much anxiety.

I thought that was what the Greek gods did?

Phimes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

tee hee giggle

i thought that is what all Gods do. Why? cause they can!


Oral and literary traditions of the ancient Romans concerning their gods and heroes and the nature and history of the cosmos. Much of what became Roman mythology was borrowed from Greek mythology at a later date, as Greek gods were associated with their Roman counterparts. As in Greek mythology, legendary Roman heroes (such as Romulus and Remus and Aeneas) were given semidivine status. See also Roman religion.

"" "" britanica""""

metaphorically speaking, nice to see you again, Phimes

Originally posted by helen670
Seekerof.......
Gnosticism/Paganism celebrates the resurrection. Christianity celebrates the incarnation. The incarnation of G-d *in the flesh* is not a corruption, but indeed a creation. It is not to be rejected, but embraced and celebrated. unquote//

.
The body of Jesus Christ is the Church.......He is the head of the church....


Sorry ,is that what thoughts and discussion you wanted?

helen....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hell---ooooo Helen

sounds like you mean the holy roman catholic church is the body and church of Christ the Messiah from the House of David

nay

each and every body is a temple where the lord can be worshipped
paraphrase Old Testament

Actually the interpretation of the Greek/Roman heaven is incorrect, simply stated it is a place where one is reunited with ones family/ancestors.

Hence the emphasis upon making models of those family members who had died (made of lead and reminiscent of toys).

As well is the "Happy Hunting Ground" with respect to American Indian culture a deviation from the conclusion this thread has initially presented (American Indian systems of belief are accepted as Pagan).

Valhalla of course was a place where victory in battle was assured as well as the spoils which followed.

The world is not an illusion but is indeed heaven.

Some Christians would argue that but you are not presenting an accurate interpretation.

The lake of fire does not present annihilation but rather enteral damnation/suffering, something I feel is unusual given the size of the universe.

What are your thoughts?

[Edited on 18-6-2003 by Toltec]

Originally posted by tututkamen

Originally posted by helen670
Seekerof.......
Gnosticism/Paganism celebrates the resurrection. Christianity celebrates the incarnation. The incarnation of G-d *in the flesh* is not a corruption, but indeed a creation. It is not to be rejected, but embraced and celebrated. unquote//

.
The body of Jesus Christ is the Church.......He is the head of the church....


Sorry ,is that what thoughts and discussion you wanted?

helen....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hell---ooooo Helen

sounds like you mean the holy roman catholic church is the body and church of Christ the Messiah from the House of David

nay

each and every body is a temple where the lord can be worshipped
paraphrase Old Testament

I never said ''Roman Catholic ''

The head of the church(Ekklisia)
church.......means people
So the head of the people is Jesus Christ.....He is the head of the people.......a church is a building in which people gather to worship the creator.....to have a heaven on earth....
Yes, your body is a temple which should be treated as such......but do we treat it with respect?
Do we hold true the ten commandments of God?
If we did , then this world would be a better place....
But we all fall short in breaking the commandments of God.....
The old testament prophesied that a Saviour would come......and He did.
There is no person on earth who can take the position of God and claim to be infallible!
Only God can do that.
We have the Church because we do that in remembrance of Jesus Christ....to live in His teachings and to learn ......The Apostles had the teachings of Christ and they were told to do it in remembrance of Him.....That is why we have buildings.....we remember to worship God through His teachings...
If one lived in a night club,then one would only act as what one sees and does in a night club!
If one is surrounded by good things,then one adapts to those good things!

Hi Toltec....

The size of the universe is not what should matter to us!
If one looks at what one's eyes can only see ,then we could say that we are here only in this life and then it is the end!

I myself do beleive in a 'hell' .......where the souls of the urepented sinners go.....all are called to ''Heaven'' through the cofession of one's sins......eg
If one has a problem that is bothering them, then one seeks help .....the help one gets is what helps them get through that problem.......only if one seeks that help ,one can be helped!

Purgatory is something of which the Roman Catholic church beleive.....one pays their sins there and moves to heaven for eternity.....
I personally dont know much about the purgatory because It has not been mentioned in the Bible and also by the Early church fathers explanatory discussions.
Revelation speaks of the judgement of the whole world....where the goats and the sheep are seperated...one to the left.......and the other's on the right!
Sorry does that make sense?
helen

It makes great sense Helen.

Personally, I don't believe in a 'literal' Hell.

I have a 'broader view' of G-d. Let me start with this...there are many who say that the greatest gift G-d gave us was 'free will/choice'. Yet these very same people who believe this and say this also claim that if we do not obey G-d, that G-d will condemn or send us to Hell.

What kind of 'free will' is that?

Does this not make a mockery of G-d -- to say nothing of any sort of true relationship between He and us?

There's a Hell alright, it's just not what many upon many seem to think it is.

Hell is the experience of the worst possible outcome of our choice's, decision's, and creation's. It is the natural consequence of any thought which denies G-d.

Hell is the opposite of joy.

It is unfullfillment.

It is failure to experience who we are in our relationship to G-d.

Hell, to me, doesn't exist as this place we have fantasized about, where we burn in some everlasting fire, or exist in some state of eternal torment. What purpose would G-d have in that?

Why would G-d have need to seek such revenge or punishment for our failings?

Wouldn't it be far easier for G-d to just dispose of us?

What vengeful part of G-d would require that He subject us to eternal suffering of a type and at a level beyond description?

If you answer the need for 'justice', would not a simple denial of communion with G-d in heaven or being cut-off (separated) from G-d's presence not serve the ends for justice?

We are all part of G-d, and in being so, we will all, eventually, return to that which allowed us to experience; for in our experiencing, G-d experiences Himself. The whole point in G-d creating us was for us to discover ourselves, create ourselves, as we truly are -- and as we truly wish to be. The plan and purpose, the idea, G-d has for us is that G-d should become realized through us. That thus, concept is turned into experience, that G-d might know Himself experientially. Hmm, getting carried away...sorry.

regards
seekerof

Well, it depends upon what one means by "pagan": or what C.S. Lewis meant. In his case, a "classical" view perhaps.
The Greeks and Romans weren't much on Heaven: Elysian fields for heroes and they don't sound too happy (check Odysseus visiting the underworld) and a dark and dismal Hades for the rest.
As for the "Gnostics" well, whatever they believed, it was so thoroughly eradicated by the early Church that anyone claiming any detailed and precise information probably has a head that isn't right.
At the heart of Lewis's drivel (and he was a most irritating driveller) is the notion that any "pagan" heaven is by definition unadorned by the Christian Godhead and Trinity and that is exactly what a Christian hell is, by definition: outside of Christ's redemption. Sophistry 101 and very easy, really.

As for not believing in "a literal hell": that's effectively meaningless: there is no "literal" hell: the greatest imaginative attempt at hell was of course Dante.
The Church is, and always has been, massively silent when it comes to any canonical statement on the nature of hell -even to the "literalness" of the fires. There's nothing coherent that's "literal" in the NT.
Other than some vague sort of " a bad place where the bad souls of bad people go after their bad lives" there's not much else beyond personal interpretation and statements to the effect that" I don't believe what I don't believe in".
Tautology 101, methinks.

How can you say there is no "literal hell"?
Unless you have greater knowledge than the rest of humanity you are just another person squawking their opinion with no more authority than another.

Who spoke the most about hell? Jesus did. he is the one who gave us the outline of hell. Also there is pretty definitive explanations of it in the OT. Certainly Jesus believed it was literal, and if its good enough for him its good enough for me.

Originally posted by Estragon
As for not believing in "a literal hell": that's effectively meaningless: there is no "literal" hell: the greatest imaginative attempt at hell was of course Dante.
The Church is, and always has been, massively silent when it comes to any canonical statement on the nature of hell -even to the "literalness" of the fires. There's nothing coherent that's "literal" in the NT.
Other than some vague sort of " a bad place where the bad souls of bad people go after their bad lives" there's not much else beyond personal interpretation and statements to the effect that" I don't believe what I don't believe in".
Tautology 101, methinks.

[Edited on 18-6-2003 by Netchicken]

Shame on you Net-C for putting Estragon to the trouble: I am of course intimately acquainted with all the Apostles, Church fathers and Councils said, in Greek, Latin, Morse Code, and Wingdings: but as to Jesus� own description: well, here�s the lot (all synoptic, of course and a total of ten chapters with ample repetition)

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, .......whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5: 29 And if thy right eye offend thee.......and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee.........] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 10:28 ...him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 11.23�And thou, Capernaum, ��. shalt be brought down to hell
Mat 16:8 ���..upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee��� cast into hell fire.
Mat 23:15 �scribes and Pharisees��twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:23 ������.how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mar 9:43 ��. into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:45 ������..into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:47 �����..to be cast into hell fire:
Luk 10:15 ..Capernaum�. be thrust down to hell.
Luk 12:5 ��Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell
Luk 16:23 And in hell he ���..seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(apologies for the length, cyberchums: but as ever -you have an ideal piece of drivel-proofing: not that it ever worked when I tried it on the revelation postings..yawn..blah)

Now, I make that: downhill, forever hot, at God�s discretion, receiving bodies as well as well as souls, not nice, with gates, all manner of long-dead Jewish clergymen.

And that is exactly how �literal� a description ( and that�s assuming that �hell� is not used symbolically here.
The prosecution rests

Estragon is correct in that the Biblical descriptions of Hell have always been vague, except it is not really a place you want to be. I was reading a essay on a "skeptics" site and the author wrote a very detailed description of Hell (such as being tortured with needles, etc.) I wondered where he came up with such detailed knowledge of Hell since any detailed descriptions of Hell are not supported by the Bible. I know certain Christian preachers have preached some very lurid descriptions of Hell, but they usually back down when they are asked where in the Bible does it say that. Hell is basically separation from God, the absence of God's love (not heaven). I always wondered if in Hell rather than suffering the Wrath of God, those who do not repent will suffer the Indifference of God; that Hell will be a world where the unrepentent will be sent and they can go their own way and do whatever they please. God would neither aid nor abet anything they wanted to do. (Basically the people get what they want - a world where they can do their own thing.) Any rules to be made will have to be done by them, they get to build their own society; however, if they want something, they have to do it for themselves.

To be honest Helen one of the inherent fallacies of the church is in its interpretation of the physical aspects of reality. And while throwing out the baby with the bath water is not something if feel is appropriate, because of this disparity I do acknowledge the belief that God does not punish us for what we do wrong.

Rather, when faced with what God is as a whole and in all consideration to all his aspects, we punish ourselves for any interpretation which resulted in deviating
from his plan.

An interesting observation, Toltec and it reminds me of the generally accepted teaching (not canonical or ex cathedra, of course) with regard to Purgatory: that it is not punishment - rather, those in Purgatory welcome and desire their purging so that they will be acceptable when they face God.

Agreed Estragon